ccw = threatened?

This is a discussion on ccw = threatened? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've only had one person I've pulled over tell me they were legally carrying. I just told him as long as I didn't see the ...

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Thread: ccw = threatened?

  1. #31
    Member Array DeepHelmet's Avatar
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    I've only had one person I've pulled over tell me they were legally carrying. I just told him as long as I didn't see the gun in his hands, we'd be friends. Ended up having a bit of gun talk, and sent him on his way with a warning. Even though Utah has thousands of CCW holders, I've only pulled one over (that I know of) in nine years. That's probably a result of where I work, fairly bad hoods. Not a lot of gang members rollin' with the CCW.

    It concerns me that he unsnapped his holster....not because he was concerned you had a gun, that's just staying alive till the end of the shift. What concerns me is the more and more common practice of unsnapping/rotating the hood/whatever your holster when you think bad things are going to happen. Not enough officers are training their drawstroke often enough. They should be as fast out of the holster with all of the security devices activated as without. An officer who relies on an unsnapped holster to be fast is asking for trouble. The comment was made above that we don't shoot or train enough. It's right.

    Natural, from reading your posts on several 1911 forums, I can see with very little uncertainty that you are one of the good guys. But please don't be offended though by officers who get a little hyped up when the driver tells them they have a gun. A lot of these guys don't read the forums.

    But this one time, I was pulled over at an "insurance" (read DWI) checkpoint. I notified this young pup that I was carrying and suddenly I'm staring into the muzzle of a Glock 17 and his finger is on the trigger! That didn't worry me as much as the amount he was shaking and how his voice quavered when he commanded me to exit the car, lock my fingers behind my neck and walk backwards to him. Instructions I followed very carefully. All the while I could hear his older partner screaming at him. The FNG drew my Sig and cleared it (thank God he got that right, I had my doubts) and then ran the numbers several times....and his partner apologized to me and said the FNG was one reason he was retiring soon....and when the kid got no hits he proceeded to grill me on exactly WHY I felt the "need" to carry a gun....When he gave me an opening to speak...I DID.
    THAT is inexcusable, and I'd like to apologize for all of us out there who respect the CCW holders. That kid needs to be beaten for that performance. He gives us all a bad name. Sorry for the long post, I'm done now.

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  3. #32
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kel-Tec2006
    PA doesn't require you to tell police, so as a rule of thumb I DON'T.
    i considered this, but i didnt want to surprise him if he had noticed that i was carrying. i thought that handing him my ccw would be the "right" thing to do, even though the law doesnt require it. spotting a weapon under a guys coat would make me a lot more nervous than having him inform me beforehand.

    <shrug>

    i still believe that i did the right thing by informing him. he asked me where the weapon was and i told him strongside OWB and that was pretty much the extent of it.

  4. #33
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    It probably just dawned on him that he had not unsnapped it earlier.
    is unsnapping the holster standard proceedure during a stop? ive never unsnapped my retention strap unless i was drawing my weapon. it just seems to me that an unsnapped retention strap defeats the entire purpose of the retention strap to begin with. you dont need the retention strap for riding in the car, you only "need" it if a physical struggle occurs. or maybe im missing something.

  5. #34
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son
    Here in VA, a run of our liscense has a note which tells the officer if you do or do not have a CCW. I also wanted to be upfront and show I wasn't hiding anything. The whole stop when fine, and we both went home.
    ive often thought about why this isnt the case everywhere. it todays computerized era it wouldnt be difficult to associate ccw with plate numbers.

    ...on the other hand, when faced with a rookie officer this could also lead to a lot of unnecessary "exit the vehicle with your hands in the air".

  6. #35
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    suddenly I'm staring into the muzzle of a Glock 17 and his finger is on the trigger!
    wow....i guess unsnapping his retention strap was almost funny in comparison.

  7. #36
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakshow10mm
    First off, no traffic stop is routine. Let's get that cleared up first and foremost.
    i can agree that an officer should never become complacent during a stop, but the notion that there is no "routine stop" is just not accurate. most people are decent, law abiding people and stopping them is relatively "routine".


    Best thing to do is not to drive like an idiot and get pulled over in the first place. Then you wouldn't have problems like this.
    that response is so not cool and unexpected that im more disappointed than i am offended. i can only hope that this is one of those times when intention isnt clear because the conversation is limited to printed text.

    fact is, i never stated how i was driving, or why i was stopped. sure, i could have been driving drunk at 150mph.....but i also could have been dragging a ratchet strap that came loose on my load.....or had a burnt out brake light.

    i for one, hope this is just a misunderstanding on my part.

  8. #37
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter
    Most thank me and in a few minutes we're talking guns.
    lol.....yup! i ended up selling a ruger security six to a trooper who checked my license during a road block years ago.

  9. #38
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepHelmet
    Natural, from reading your posts on several 1911 forums, I can see with very little uncertainty that you are one of the good guys.
    thank you for saying so. i sure like to think of myself as a "good guy". some may think im a little nutty for caching guns, ammo, provisions, etc. but i obey the law, pay my taxes, and contribute to society when i can.

  10. #39
    Member Array DeepHelmet's Avatar
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    you dont need the retention strap for riding in the car, you only "need" it if a physical struggle occurs. or maybe im missing something.
    You're not missing anything, you are right on the money. The retention strap/hood is there to prevent gun grabs during a physical struggle. If you decide to undo it on the way up to every car, then just get an open top holster and call it good. Unsnapping the holster before you draw your gun is a bad habit, usually brought on by an inability to draw it properly in the first place. Bad training.

    On a traffic stop, I'd rather be told than not. I don't recall if Utah is a "shall tell" state. I think it is. The CCW info does come up on DL checks though. Either way, it's a simple matter of cool heads on both sides to make things go smoothly. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but when you venture out armed, you need to be above reproach. If you do get stopped (people get stopped all the time for doing things other than "driving like an idiot" ) , follow what your local law says. I call it the Common Sense method, usually works well for me.

  11. #40
    Member Array Kel-Tec2006's Avatar
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    Best thing to do is not to drive like an idiot and get pulled over in the first place. Then you wouldn't have problems like this.
    I have 1 speeding ticket in my life and that was when I was 17-so it was more then 10 years ago. However, I have been through dozens of checkpoints where they have asked to see my license and registration. Each and every time I go through one, I NEVER EVER tell the officer that I am carrying. My state says I don't have to-so guess what, I dont have to!

    I have never been stopped, but I think that I would notify the officer while keeping my hands in full view (ie. on the steering wheel) and then ask for further instructions. I also would feel more comfortable with an officer removing my weapon from my holster. I think I would rather have my hands locked behind my head and just let the officer remove my weapon rather than me reaching for it expecially if I am wearing my retention holster that you have to have a proper grip on the gun to reach the unlock button.
    I respect what police do for a living, but I respect my rights as a US citizen and as a PA citizen more. To me, having to get out of my car under gun point and be treated like a common criminal is not only degrading, but makes you feel like a bad guy yourself! If the officer asked me, I would say yes and hand him my permit. He has a right to go run my numbers and make sure it is legit. In my opinion he doesnt have the right to draw on you and have you get out of your car, and maybe even cuff you up, right on the freakin' highway for everyone to see, just because you have a CCW.

    Let's be reasonable for 5 seconds here people. If someone has a CCW and WHEN ASKED, let's the officer know, "Yes, I do have a CCW, and I am carrying", what are the actuall chances after all of that, the CCW holder is actually a bad guy hell bent on destruction? Come on! If he is a BG, first off, when asked if he has a gun, he will say NO! Or, worse yet, he may just wait for the officer to approach then open fire. A BG isnt going to comply with the law, hand him his CCW, notify the officer he is armed, then decide "Hey, I am gonna shoot this cop!" If that has happened, I would like to see actual stats on it: CCW holders who shot police during traffic stops. Someone dig that up.

    Yes, police have a job to do. That job does not involve harrassing law abiding citizens who are exercising their rights to protect themselves and their families. Imagine what that would do to your 3 year old in the back seat when the cop draws on you, gets you out of your car, then cuffs you up just because you have a CCW!

    And, just because he is a cop, doesn't mean he is there to 'protect and serve'. Do some research on Gerard Schaefer, convicted serial killer and police officer who picked up victims in HIS CRUISER.

    Or, my personal favorite, a state trooper I know who, even after having a PFA placed against him for beating his wife, was still able to go to work and still perform all his duties as a trooper-including carrying a gun. How do I know this? The person he beat was my sister.
    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. For when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

    Nietzsche



  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array 4my son's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalSelection
    ive often thought about why this isnt the case everywhere. it todays computerized era it wouldnt be difficult to associate ccw with plate numbers.

    ...on the other hand, when faced with a rookie officer this could also lead to a lot of unnecessary "exit the vehicle with your hands in the air".
    This was written about my saying VA has linked to our licenses, I should have clarified that it is tied to our Drivers License, Thankfully it's not tied to our car tags, That way, since both my wife’s name and mine are on all of our cars, she won't get hassled if stopped because I carry.

    It shows right on the computer screen, I forget what the block was called.

    I'm surprised it's not like that everywhere,

    I would hope that after confirming that all is valid, the LEO would feel more comfortable with us, since we have been through far more stringent background checks than the average law abiding citizen he may encounter. That's not to say he should be careless either.

    Lets all stay safe.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I apologize from the harshness of my driving comment. I have heard all sorts of "pulled over while carrying" threads from all over and it seems to be the norm that people drive like idiots and fly around town doing 15-20 over, get pulled over, and then post the play by play on the forums and everybody either praises the cop for being cool, or bashes him for taking extra caution. They can't predict your character.

    Remember every criminal was a law abiding citizen too. It just took one unpredictable act to set them different. The officer at your door on a traffic stop doesn't know if that moment you make the decision to become criminal. The chances of that happening are very slim, possibly beyond measure, but it could happen, same with being the victim and shooting for your life. You never know, butYou can't expect an officer to pat you on the back, buy you a beer and commend you up and down on your decision to carry a weapon for protection.

    I was wrong to assume you were speeding. I have just heard of it a lot. It gets tiring after a while.

    No, I have never, ever been pulled over in my life. I cannot relate to being stopped by a police officer. My only experience with it is on ride-alongs and training in cop school. I have never been in a vehicle that has been pulled over.

    I am fairly young, I'll be 25 this May. Had my DL since I was 18. I don't drive crazy, race down streets, light up my tires. I drive the speed limit or 5 over, no more, just enough to seperate myself from the grannies driving 5 under. I think once or twice I caught myself creeping to almost 10 over and slowed down. My life or the lives of someone else are not worth it.

    Every single traffic stop is different. People think traffic stops and DV arrests are routine. They are mistaken. There is no single traffic stop that is the same as any other traffic stop in any LEO's career. Simple reality. I think when most people refer to "routine traffic stop" they mean, pull over, check DL and tags, issue ticket or warning, get back in car and write report. Doesn't happen like that. Trust me. On ride-alongs, I have been on no fewer than about 50 traffic stops. There was nothing "routine" about it. Go on a ride-along with a local cop. You will see for yourself. Go to odmp.org and see how many officers died during "routine" traffic stops. Sobering website.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  14. #43
    Member Array Kel-Tec2006's Avatar
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    I think an interesting study would be to take the number of legal CCW holders (not neccesarily just legal gun owners) that kill or injure with their firearm illegally and compare it to the number of police officers that have turn bad and abused their power to hurt or kill.

    The stats may surprise you!
    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. For when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

    Nietzsche



  15. #44
    Member Array Kel-Tec2006's Avatar
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    One more question. Why is it when a cop pulls another cop over for speeding, then realizes he is a cop, he lets him go with a nod and a wave? The cop that got pulled over is probably carrying, so isnt the arresting officer concerned? Why is automatically considered, because the person you pulled over is a fellow cop, that he isnt capable of harm or murder? And, why is he held above the law and not fined like I would be?

    It is these types of things that I do not understand.
    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. For when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

    Nietzsche



  16. #45
    Member Array Otis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kel-Tec2006
    One more question. Why is it when a cop pulls another cop over for speeding, then realizes he is a cop, he lets him go with a nod and a wave? The cop that got pulled over is probably carrying, so isnt the arresting officer concerned? Why is automatically considered, because the person you pulled over is a fellow cop, that he isnt capable of harm or murder? And, why is he held above the law and not fined like I would be?

    It is these types of things that I do not understand.
    I think it's just a sign of courtousy and respect to his brother officer.

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