My evening.. A bit long winded..
This is a discussion on My evening.. A bit long winded.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; They were casing you period. Very good that you listened to your gut and acted. I'm also glad it turned out alright.
I myself would ...
February 21st, 2009 07:35 AM
They were casing you period. Very good that you listened to your gut and acted. I'm also glad it turned out alright.
I myself would have driven to the police station and not confronted them but that is me.
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.
February 21st, 2009 07:41 AM
One of the BIG principles of self defense is self control. As you stated you got angry and then stupid. Learn from it. You can get angry and stay level headed. No matter the dispatchers response I'd of taken them to the police dept.s front door first.
If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.
February 21st, 2009 07:55 AM
This situation brings up a training opportunity. Since you have now experienced the fight ot flight emotional stress try to use it to hone your skills. Since you work out at the gym, extend that to your weapon skills. After working out while your heart rate is still up and fine motor skills are less controllable, practice drawing and firing using snap caps. The pump you have from a gym closely resembles the pump you will have during an armed confrontation. practice for it.
February 21st, 2009 08:20 AM
You lost the advantage, if you had it, when you got out of the car. You set yourself up for prison when you confronted them with a weapon. If hey had drawn on you, you likely would have THOUGHT you were justified in defending yourself. In most states that is not the case. In court those punks would be all dressed up with hair cut to make them look young and innocent. "The bad man chased us down and pulled a gun and daddy's gun was in the glove box...we just defended ourselves."
You and your dad should have a plan for this and many other scenarios.
February 21st, 2009 09:05 AM
The police investigate. The "protect" part of "To Serve and Protect" is a myth at best and a feel good statement at worst. That's why we carry guns and other SD equipment. Having not been in your position, and having a temper myself, I don't feel qualified to second guess you. Nor am I comfortable in speculating what I would have done. But what I would not have done is confronted superior numbers or the unknown. Nor would I have escalated the situation. There is the old "responsibility to retreat" situation which if ignored puts one at risk of prosecution.
I said what's it going to take to get a cop to do his job, he says when a crime is committed he'll get a police officer over to me right away.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
February 21st, 2009 09:08 AM
Glad nothing worse happened. You've been sufficiently analyzed from both a legal and tactical perspective. Never having had a similar experience, I can't say for sure how I would have reacted, but thanks for sharing. I'm going to take your story and try to imprint it in my mind so I don't make the same mistakes, e.g., becoming the potential aggressor instead of the legal victim. You can understand the police officer's response, and it would have been smarter to drive to a cop shop. Odds are the kids would have turned off once they knew where they were going.
February 21st, 2009 09:10 AM
You are very lucky that everything worked out ok for you. You never know who you're dealing with so getting out of your car to confront them is a huge no-no, as you already know.
I have to admit that I have followed cars before. If I'm lost, I have the tendency to follow a car in hopes that it would lead me out to a familiar main road. That's obviously not the case here since you noticed them as you left your store. Since they followed you home, would it qualify as "stalking" and would the police take action then?
Although the kids claim they were just playing around, remain on alert when you're at the store. Teenage punks talk and once they start sharing this incident with their punk friends, they may consider your actions a challenge and try something stupid. I recall being a teenager and feeling invincible once. I also had a lot of dumb friends and acquaintances who would revisit you just because they are bored.
Stay safe and thank goodness you didn't lead them to your home.
Last edited by Bah Humbug; February 21st, 2009 at 09:12 AM.
S&W 60LS (LadySmith)
Big Mean Rottie
Big Mean Hubby
February 21st, 2009 09:13 AM
The last person to leave a store is usually the manager. Most stores have the manager make a bank deposit on their way home. I know I used to have to do that when I was a manager. I'd bet a paycheck they were hoping to follow you to the bank...
64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
February 21st, 2009 09:30 AM
You have explained the right and wrong things you did here, and I think you've learned from them, so I won't go into what some of the others have said.
Your PD is a lot differnt from mine. I was followed a few months ago and called the general phone# for my local PD. They instructed me to not bring them to the PD which is attached to the Court building. I was able to see and describe the occupants and the vehicle and within 6 blocks making a zig-zag pattern through the neighborhood, the PD was right behind them with lights flashing. After they were stopped I proceed to the PD to complete a witness statement for their investigation. Had this occured after court hours I would expect they may have instructed me to drive to the PD if they weren't able to get a car to where I was.
Friday nights are pretty busy here and they may not have had anyone available, but to tell you to just go home might be the dumbest thing they could have done. If anyone was following me the last place I would lead them is to my door.
Take the lessons from your experience and use them to your advantage, the good and the bad. Hopefully the punks will do the same.
Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.
February 21st, 2009 09:32 AM
Of course getting out of your car and confronting these guys twice is not without its risks (ask any leo). By doing so you left your cover and means of egress (I don't like that word).......but it sounds better than "running away".
I do however appreciate your courage in confronting them. Often I see the quote here that "BG's look for victims, not opponents". They clearly knew you weren't going to be a victim. I think many citizens like yourself are fed up with being hunted as potential victims. It's a frustration issue, though don't let it get you killed.
Personally, I'm very pro-police though not real satisfied with your local police interest in this. If they didn't respond because they were lackadaisical that's bad, if they didn't respond because they were overwhelmed with other calls more urgent that's understandable. In today's world I think the police are far undermanned for the amount of activity they have to respond to. At times they're spread too thin.
Same scenario where I live, and just closing up a business at night, possibly with BG's thinking I've got the daily cash bag and me reporting I'm clearly being followed. The local police would be all over this "head's up" of suspicious activity. Though no real crime had been committed, the police will be pro-active enough that their stop will likely reveal some drugs or outstanding warrants on these guys.
February 21st, 2009 10:08 AM
Things you did right:
- You had a gun on you
- You had an alarm, and used it
- You noticed you were being followed
- You didn't go home
- You called the police for help
Things you did wrong:
You know those already.
The LEO who told you to go home while you were being followed is an idiot.
I concur with the difficulty of drawing a gun from your pocket while you are driving. I have a holster in my car for a quick-access car gun, but if I'm in someone else's vehicle, I'll use a shoulder holster. It's much faster than drawing anything near my waist when I'm strapped in a vehicle.
Here's the link to one I like: SpecGear TRUSS Holster Tactical Belly Band Undercover Weapon System for Law Enforcement The truss holster I have has a holster for the gun, plus 7 different compartments: 4 for mags, 1 for something flashlight size, and 2 for things cuff sized.
I concur with the advice to start locking up with 2 people. What would have happened if it had been your Dad's turn to lock up alone?
February 21st, 2009 11:14 AM
I expose myself sometimes too (don't like how that sounds). I know its not the right thing to do, but sometimes I gotta let the cards fall where they may. And I will accept what ever my come of it. Some people get away with it and some don't. It went good for you. This Time...
February 21st, 2009 11:14 AM
This brings to mind the signature I saw on the forum someone had under thier name. it goes " I carry a gun because a cop is to heavy" haha. That craks me up.
February 21st, 2009 11:36 AM
Thank You everyone for the advice / criticism.. Sometimes when your so close to the situation you can't really identify the mistakes until you step away and have someone else look at it.
I knew majorly how I [Edited] right after I did it. I feel I got lucky last night, big time. I decided to share this so everyone could learn from it. Including me. Replaying it in my head over and over again I saw exactly how and where I made mistakes.
While it felt good to confront them.. It was dumb plain and simple.
I lost every tactical advantage I had and most likely a few legal standings to defend myself in court should something have happened when I turned from hunted to hunter. I guess in a legal setting its better to "be the victim".
- While I might not have been clear about it. My firearm was never visible to anyone.
Thank you to everyone for the comments.
Mistakes are ok, as long as we learn from them. I have definetly learned from mine.
Some changes that will be made starting today:
- 2 people in the store at all times. (we used to send someone out to go pick up dinner / run to the bank / run errands, this will be done when the store is closed or we'll get someone else to do it. )
- We are paying to send our employee through the MI CPL process so he will have one also. We may even help with the purchase of his firearm if he cannot afford it.
- The store will not be closed if anyone is sitting in the parking lot.
- No more woop's I forgot this. We've done this one ALOT, the store is our second home. Its not uncommon for one of us to stop up here when we are closed. Or pick stuff up for a regular customer off hours. This will stop as of today.
- We already do not do night time deposits and will continue this. Deposits can wait until the next day.
- We have identified a few indirect routes home. We both live within a 2 block radius of the business so it's just smart to add a few extra turn's before we go home.
- Night time guy will go to the car first, then we will do the final alarm / setting of the alarm with him being able to provide assistance from the car. We will all leave the lot at the same time.
- I'm considering transitioning from my pants pocket to my coat pocket before leaving. This would give me much easier access to it if I needed it.
Did I miss anything?
I'm waiting for a police supervisor to show up and to hopefully take a report. I called this morning and requested them to send someone over to chat.
Just better to be safe then sorry.
Last edited by Captain Crunch; February 21st, 2009 at 01:27 PM.
Reason: Language workaround.
February 21st, 2009 11:39 AM
our local shop has bumper stickers and a billboard on the highway..
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