College glove box carry

This is a discussion on College glove box carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Good Morning DC! I am a student at the University of Kentucky and a newer CCW holder. This post is going to have laws pasted ...

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Thread: College glove box carry

  1. #1
    Member Array Datsun40146's Avatar
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    College glove box carry

    Good Morning DC!

    I am a student at the University of Kentucky and a newer CCW holder. This post is going to have laws pasted into it so it may be a bit "dry". According to KRS 237.115

    Except as provided in KRS 527.020, nothing contained in KRS 237.110 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the right of a college, university, or any postsecondary education facility, including technical schools and community colleges, to control the possession of deadly weapons on any property owned or controlled by them or the right of a unit of state, city, county, urban-county, or charter county government to prohibit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons by licensees in that portion of a building actually owned, leased, or occupied by that unit of government.

    However in subsection (4) and (5) of KRS 527.020

    (4) Persons licensed to carry a concealed deadly weapon pursuant to KRS 237.110 may
    carry a firearm or other concealed deadly weapon on or about their persons at all
    times within the Commonwealth of Kentucky, if the firearm or concealed deadly
    weapon is carried in conformity with the requirements of that section. Unless
    otherwise specifically provided by the Kentucky Revised Statutes or applicable
    federal law, no criminal penalty shall attach to carrying a concealed firearm or other
    deadly weapon with a permit at any location at which an unconcealed firearm or
    other deadly weapon may be constitutionally carried.

    (5) A firearm or other deadly weapon shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person if it is located in a glove compartment, regularly installed in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer regardless of whether said compartment is locked, unlocked, or does not have a locking mechanism.

    Now here is the meat of the question. UK cannot apply a criminal punishment for carrying on campus which is fine I don't plan on carrying on campus. I would however like to keep my weapon in my glove box on a campus parking lot. So which law superceeds the other? The law states that "Except as provided in KRS 527.020" well then according to that I can carry in my glove box. However UK has a no firearms policy and is backed up by KRS 237.115. Who is right? Can I carry legally and without fear of punishment in my glove box on campus? The laws seem to contradict on another. Thank you
    "The 280z, is more like a skittish, half broken bronco, that requires constant attention, challenges your driving ability and will literally ride the driver hard and put him away wet."
    -Hybridz.org

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  3. #2
    Member Array Precision's Avatar
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    consult your state's AG.

    If not (and maybe even if so) you may become the test case.

    The other thing is, even if you are LEGAL, they can still expel you and you will still have a gun related offense on your record and probably never get a degree from a "good" college

    And yes that is blackmail, but the way it works.

  4. #3
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    I do not agree with Precision's views...

    1) Consult the school's code of conduct pamplets...it more than likely spells it out there concerning weapons on campus. Most schools also consider the school parking lots "on campus". If you do not get an answer...seek answers from the campus police...and get their answer in writing (specific verbage). The local LEOs might also have your answer.

    2) Obviously, as in many states, there is the law and then there are the school's rules. One throws you in jail, the other can get you kicked out. If you are expelled...not the end of the world...and can get a degree from a number of "good colleges" (whatever that means).

    I commend you for asking the question...it is very confusing to many. Until you get your answer definitively in writing and specific, I'd refrain from bringing a weapon in your car. It tends to be a grey area...and I would err on the side of caution.

    Rick

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    Member Array Datsun40146's Avatar
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    Thanks for the words of wisdom bandit. I planned on being cautious, rather than assuming the laws worked in my favor. I work for the university as an resident adviser to the students. That allows me to plan programming for their benefit. So on Monday I have the UK police with drug dogs coming over to say hello and to give a demo, talk about safety ect. I will ask this question to the officers then, and report back. Does anyone have any advice on how to approach this issues with an officer? Obviously in private away from the residents but anything else?

    This is out student code of conduct as it reads exactly in the prohibited section, I underlined the important bits.

    Prohibited Conduct

    8. Punishable disciplinary offenses include‚ but are not limited to‚ the following:
    1. Interference‚ coercion or disruption that impedes‚ impairs or disrupts University missions‚ processes or functions or interferes with the rights of others. The following‚ while not intended to be exclusive‚ illustrate the offenses encompassed herein: occupation of any University building or property‚ or part thereof‚ without authorization by the University; blocking the entrance or exit of any University building or corridor or room therein; setting fire to‚ or by any other means‚ damaging any University building or property or the property of others on University premises; any possession or display of‚ or attempt‚ or threat to use firearms‚ explosive or other weapons upon University property without University authorization; prevention of the convening‚ continuation or orderly conduct of any University class or activity or of any lawful meeting or assembly upon University property; blocking normal pedestrian or vehicular traffic on University property; and failure to vacate premises when ordered to do so by a University official.
    2. Use‚ possession‚ or distribution of narcotic or dangerous drugs‚ except as expressly permitted by law.
    3. Disorderly‚ abusive‚ drunken‚ violent or excessively noisy behavior or expression.
    4. The threat or commission of physical violence against self or other persons.
    5. The commission of acts or the implementation of programs or activities that constitute a violation of local‚ state or federal law.
    6. Failure to comply with directions of University officials acting in the performance of their duties.
    7. Falsifying‚ altering or forging any official University records or documents‚ employing official University documents or records for purposes of misrepresentation‚ or causing any official University documents or records to be falsified by means of any misrepresentation.
    8. Hazing by any action taken or situation created‚ intentionally or recklessly‚ whether on or off University premises‚ to produce mental or physical discomfort‚ embarrassment‚ harassment‚ or ridicule. Such abusive activities and situations may include‚ but are not limited to the following: illegal or harmful use and/or forced consumption of food‚ alcohol or drugs; paddling in any form; creation of fatigue; personal servitude; physical and/or psychological shocks; wearing apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; degrading or humiliating games and activities; sleep or food deprivation; any meetings which unreasonably interfere with scholastic activities; and/or any other activities which are not consistent with the regulations and policies of the University of Kentucky.
    9. Knowingly passing a worthless check or money order to the University or to a member of the University community acting in an official capacity; recurring financial over–obligation and nonpayment of debts to the University.
    10. Theft of property or services; knowingly possessing stolen property.
    11. Possessing a deadly weapon without authorization of the Dean of Students.
    12. Defacing‚ disfiguring‚ damaging or destroying public or private property.
    13. Giving false testimony or other evidence at any official hearing of the University or giving false information to any faculty or staff members acting in the performance of their duties.
    14. Bribing any University employee or student officials.
    15. Harassing anyone present on University property.
    16. Providing information to individuals involved in organized gambling activities concerning intercollegiate athletics competition; or participating in any gambling activity that involves intercollegiate athletics or amateur athletics‚ through a bookmaker‚ a parlay card or any other method employed by organized gambling.
    17. Violation of conditions imposed in connection with one or more of the sanctions enumerated in Article II‚ Section 11 of this Code.
    18. Violation of other published University regulations or policies. Such regulations or policies include‚ but are not limited to‚ policies regarding computer use‚ alcohol‚ hazing‚ entry and use of University facilities as well as regulations governing student organizations and residence halls.
    "The 280z, is more like a skittish, half broken bronco, that requires constant attention, challenges your driving ability and will literally ride the driver hard and put him away wet."
    -Hybridz.org

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    Member Array Datsun40146's Avatar
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    Update

    OK I spoke with a Sargent with our local PD while he was here giving a drug dog demo. (Very cool dog BTW) He agrees with our assessment that it is a very grey area. He stated that how can UK over ride state policy? UK has a policy against concealed firearms, but the weapon isn't concealed in a glove box. He gave me some information and asked me to contact UK's legal department about the issue. So that is what I'm going to do. As soon as I post this, I'll send them an email describing the situation and post back. Thanks DC!
    "The 280z, is more like a skittish, half broken bronco, that requires constant attention, challenges your driving ability and will literally ride the driver hard and put him away wet."
    -Hybridz.org

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    Member Array Datsun40146's Avatar
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    I just sent the letter into Uk's legal consoling office. Much of what I sent was cut from this thread. Here is the meat of the letter

    Good Morning Mr.Williamson

    I am a student at the University of Kentucky,a newer CCW holder, and an employee of the university through the office of residence life. This letter is going to have laws pasted into it so it may be a bit "dry", however I believe they my be necessary to make myself understood. Regardless here is the meat of the question. I am aware that UK cannot apply a criminal punishment for concealed carrying of a deadly weapon on campus which is fine I don't plan on carrying on campus. I would however like to keep my weapon in my glove box on a campus parking lot. So which law (below) superceeds the other? The law states that "Except as provided in KRS 527.020" well then according to that I can carry in my glove box. However UK has a no firearms policy and is backed up by KRS 237.115. Can UK over ride state policy? Who is right? Can I carry legally and without fear of punishment in my glove box on campus? The laws seem to contradict one another. I spoke with several UKPD officers about this issue, they all seem to agree that this is a gray area and refereed my question to you. Thank you so much for your time. I'm sure you know the laws that I have pasted below, but I thought they might be helpful in some way.
    "The 280z, is more like a skittish, half broken bronco, that requires constant attention, challenges your driving ability and will literally ride the driver hard and put him away wet."
    -Hybridz.org

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    You're asking multiple people of their interpretations of the law, and they all are likely to have differing/incorrect opinions (even the LEO). I would print out and file away any correspondence, in case it is needed in the future.

    That said, you may want to re-consider keeping your gun in the car, in case others have been made aware of you inquiries or in case of theft.

  9. #8
    Member Array Datsun40146's Avatar
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    One would think that the legal counsel I am seeking now would be the correct interpretation of the law. Believe me I don't plan on carrying to campus until I know I'm in the clear and have it in writing. I will keep the paper work with the weapon the glove box.
    "The 280z, is more like a skittish, half broken bronco, that requires constant attention, challenges your driving ability and will literally ride the driver hard and put him away wet."
    -Hybridz.org

  10. #9
    Member Array Harvthesecon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Precision View Post
    consult your state's AG.

    If not (and maybe even if so) you may become the test case.

    The other thing is, even if you are LEGAL, they can still expel you and you will still have a gun related offense on your record and probably never get a degree from a "good" college

    And yes that is blackmail, but the way it works.
    Exactly. I work at a university. I could CCW, but if the right/wrong person made me I'd be out of a job in a heart beat. Silly thing is the university is kinda in the the middle of the gettoh(city) and people(IE not staff or students) can carry through campus w/o batting an eye.

    Locked in the glove box might alright if you're very discreet about it. If your campus is anything like our campus car break-ins or thefts do occur.

  11. #10
    Member Array charliefox's Avatar
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    That's why it's called "concealed carry" - if no one knows it's there, there is no issue. I, for one, think the banning of CCW at schools is like leading lambs to the slaughter. Don't make it known that you possess, use or display your particular brand of weapon and you won't have to explain it. If having a weapon means the difference between having to go to another college or being dead guess which one I would choose.
    "Lawyers, Guns and Money"

  12. #11
    Member Array Datsun40146's Avatar
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    This is the response from UK's Legal department. All in all they were very freindly and helpful. They took the time to fully explain all the laws and gave a same history lesson.

    Mr. R********,

    You are not the first person to ask this question. The language in the Kentucky Revised Statutes is not always easily understood. Particularly, when new legislation is written and is basically an exception to other, existing legislation, it even becomes more confusing. With the deadly weapons legislation, it seems that the exceptions weave a never ending circle; however, we think it is clear that the intent of the Legislature was that universities may restrict deadly weapons on their property.

    Let me try to simply with some general responses.

    KRS 237.110 basically provides that the Department of Kentucky Sate Police is authorized to issue licenses for qualified persons to carry concealed deadly weapons.

    KRS 237.115 says that nothing in 237.110 (licensing authority of KSP) prohibits a university from limiting, restricting or prohibiting possession of deadly weapons on its property. UK has a policy; it is Administrative Regulation II-1.2-7; see http://www.uky.edu/Regs/files/ar/ar053.pdf

    KRS 527.020 says that one is guilty of a criminal violation when carrying a concealed deadly weapon except for the noted cases (exceptions) where one may possess a concealed weapon; those exceptions are noted in (2), (3), (4), (5), etc. One of those exceptions, (4), says that persons may carry a concealed deadly weapon pursuant to KRS 237.110, meaning persons may carry a concealed deadly weapons if properly licensed under 237.110. HOWEVER, 237.115 says that nothing in 237.110 (license or not) may restrict a university's right to limit, restrict or prohibit possession of deadly weapons.

    Basically, KRS 237.115 overrides/is an exception to KRS 237.110, and KRS 237.110 is an exception to 527.020.



    Perhaps, a historical perspective will help. In the past, KY law restricted the possession of deadly weapons by regular citizens. When the Legislature proposed (what would become KRS 237.110) a licensing authority for citizens to possession deadly weapons (I believe in 1996), the various colleges and universities in Kentucky requested an exception, and the Legislature granted that exception to KRS 237.110 in the form of KRS 237.115. The reference to 527.020 is necessary because it MUST remain clear that one is committing a violation of criminal law to possess a deadly weapon on university property if one is not licensed.

    Please note that one is violating Kentucky criminal law if one possesses a deadly weapon on university property WITHOUT a license. But note that one is violating university regulation (not criminal law) if one possesses a deadly weapon on university property WITH a license.

    In other words, if a citizen who is not a member of the University community (faculty, staff or student) enters university property with a deadly weapon but without a license, s/he could be arrested and charged with a criminal violation. But if student who is licensed to possess a deadly weapon enters university property with a deadly weapon, s/he may be charged with a violation of the Student Code (or if in a residence hall, a violation of her/his residence contract). A licensed faculty or staff employee who is one university property with a deadly weapons would be charged with a violation of university regulation and dealt with appropriately.

    I hope this clarifies and doesn't just make for more confusion.

    Let me specifically answer your questions:

    No, you may not keep a weapon locked in your glove box; that action is a violation of UK policy.

    EXPLANATION: 527.020(4) that says no organization shall prohibit anyone from carrying a deadly weapon in a vehicle also says "...in compliance with the provisions of KRS 237.110 and 237.115." KRS 237.115 says university may prohibit deadly weapons on their property. KRS 237.115 rules ("over-rules") 527.020(4).

    UK's rules may not override KY law. State law trumps/overrides UK regulations. However, as noted above, UK's rules on deadly weapons are authorized by KY law and the law specifically giving universities the right to make rules on deadly weapons is an exception to 527.020.

    Good research. Are you thinking of law school? Or perhaps politics?

    Have a good day.

    If this doesn't help, let me know and I'll try again.....
    T. Lynn
    "The 280z, is more like a skittish, half broken bronco, that requires constant attention, challenges your driving ability and will literally ride the driver hard and put him away wet."
    -Hybridz.org

  13. #12
    New Member Array flipper's Avatar
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    NOTE: I wouldn't consider the glove box to be a "secure" area even if it could be locked and really would not consider storing a weapon there. Also, I would highly recommend not storing the firearm with its ammunition if you decide to do so.

    Besides if you can’t depend on the university police to defend you what make you think they are capable of defending your property?

    If you have a semi-automatic it may be possible for you to leave the unloaded firearm in your car and carry the mag(s) with you. But I suggest another place for concealment.

    As you have a permit you have been passed the necessary requirements for the state for responsible carry.
    What is their liability position on not allowing you to have the capability of defending yourself?
    What is their liability if you were attacked and you couldn’t defend yourself?
    What is their liability if someone else was attacked and you couldn’t render assistance?

    I seriously doubt any skittish college official will allow any person to carry a “weapon” on campus. I have seen drill teams reduced to using wood and PVC pipe “rifles”. But that is the sad state of our supposed higher education.

    A question that you may ask is “What plans does the college/university have in place for the memorial services for any students killed?

    If they do have plans are they admitting that they expect it to happen and what precautions have they taken?

    Reminding people of their liability issues is one way to at least make them think through their decision.

    And of course as an alumnus they will always be after you for donations. It might be worth while to remind them that such donations will be few, far between or nonexistent from you and like minded students.

  14. #13
    New Member Array flipper's Avatar
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    I love the disingenuous sop comment:

    “Good research. Are you thinking of law school? Or perhaps politics?

    Have a good day.

    If this doesn't help, let me know and I'll try again.....
    T. Lynn”

    So they want you to spend more money at their institution and then go into ambulance chasing or politics. I guess they would prefer politics because as an alumnus you could funnel more state money to their institution.

    And what does the "I'll try again" comment mean? Maybe that you are too stupid to understand through all the legalese the answer is “No”?

  15. #14
    Ex Member Array Acecool's Avatar
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    Here in SC, it is allowed. Mainly so parents wouldnt be getting a felony when dropping off their kids.

    And, any place that is open to public vehicular traffic, you are also allowed to have in your car IN SC... Check your state laws.

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