When is a daycare not a daycare

This is a discussion on When is a daycare not a daycare within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In Michigan we cannot carry at a daycare or school. One of my friend's wife runs a daycare out of their house. I believe she ...

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Thread: When is a daycare not a daycare

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    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    When is a daycare not a daycare

    In Michigan we cannot carry at a daycare or school. One of my friend's wife runs a daycare out of their house. I believe she is state licensened.
    So here is the question, once the daycare kids all leave, is it OK to carry in his house?

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  3. #2
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    This is a gray area . Common sense would say it is o.k. to carry when not children present (daycare closed), however I would consider asking the MI AG . try to get a written response. Who knows you may get a opinion published(if it has not been addressed yet).
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    I spent awhile rooting around the MI legislature and AG web sites looking for the definition of "day care center" ... but could fine none. I think that's what you're seeking: what is a DCC and when (if every) does it cease being one if in a personal home. Logic would suggest it ceases being one outside of school hours, given that its primary purpose is a private residence. But, unless you get a clear statement from the statutes or a competent attorney, it'll remain a gray area.
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    I wouldn't carry till you know for sure. The law says at a day car facility and even after the kids are gone the property is still a licensed daycare facility. I wonder how that works out to a CCer that owns the house? I guess it would be a good reason not to come home after work. lol

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    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Well, Iíve always had the same question about schools; When does a school stop being off limits for CCL.


    A good example is several of the school buildings in our area are used for Church service on Sundays. And allot of them are used for shelters during hurricanes.

    So, I guess my question, runs along with yours, when does it stop being a school, and start being a multipurpose building.

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    Senior Member Array Jackle1886's Avatar
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    Same thing with the YMCA. They have a "daycare" for kids when their parents are there. But it's just one small room. And yesterday two people were shot in the Grand Rapids YMCA. So...is that a carry or no carry place? For the rest of it is a recreational facility.
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Check your laws, as I would not run on 'common sense' as very many laws are not common sensical...and one mans common sense is another mans assault weapon ban or gun free zone.

    The only viable answer to the OPs questions is; Read your state and local laws.

    As to carry when the day care is closed, that is fubar. A day care is a day care whether it be filled with kids or outside it's normal business hours.
    Same applies to K-12 schools. Carry a gun on to K-12 school grounds during off hours and get caught, you will be subject to the penalty of law just the same as if the school had been filled with kids eating lunch and playing at recess. Time of day does not matter.

    Know your applicable laws.

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    As the others have said, check your state laws, an solicit an opinion from the state AG's office. If the DCC is in a private residence, it should revert back to a private residence after published hours and all DC children have departed. A DCC that is not in a private residence should remain a DCC even after it is closed, just like a school will.

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    +1 to Janq's answer. Common sense and laws are not necessarily (often?) related.

    In FL, our church has a school. Off-limits to carry, probably.
    But, when does that cease to be true? Or, does it cease to be true?
    The opinion of some attorneys is that it is a church which runs a school. When school is not in session (no students, no teachers present), it is no longer a school. Case law? None.

    It could be argued that the portion of the facility which is used for a school is off-limits to carry. But, what about the rest of the church facility? Sanctuary off-limits because of school at the other end of the property? Offices unrelated (at least directly) to the school-are they off-limits to carrying? Who knows!

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Archer,

    The thing is though that once a person decided to run a day care out of their home, and do so lawfully, they then have changed the purpose of the property including the house from being residential to being a business. They pay taxes and such differently for same. Some states and localities do not see the conversion as being reversible as based on business hours nor will recognize the property to be dually purposed as such regardless of actual usage in off hours as a residence. Again this comes down to state and local laws, and zoning regs.

    I have no clue what the laws and such are in Michigan but I did take a quick moment to source their firearms law guide for the OP...


    Firearms Laws of Michigan
    A publication prepared by the Legislative Service Bureau pursuant to Act 381 of 2000, which requires the Bureau to "compile the firearms laws of this state, including laws that apply to carrying a concealed pistol..." MCL 28.425a(9). The firearms laws compiled herein are reprinted from the text of the Michigan Compiled Laws,supplemented through Act 92 of the 2006 Regular Session of the Michigan Legislature.

    I personally would not make _any_ assumptions about anything as regarding firearms and the law. There just isn't much common sense out there, which is in and of itself a misnomer considering sense is not actually all that common.

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    I agree Janq, that is why I said at the start of my original post, to check the laws and get an opinion from the AG's office. We all know common sense and the law doesn't walk hand in hand very often.

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    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackle1886 View Post
    Same thing with the YMCA. They have a "daycare" for kids when their parents are there. But it's just one small room. And yesterday two people were shot in the Grand Rapids YMCA. So...is that a carry or no carry place? For the rest of it is a recreational facility.
    According to the Michigan Gun laws, the no carry applies to recreational facility that seats 2,500.

    From the statue:
    (f) An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
    individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity
    of 2,500 or more individuals.

    So I would say if it doesnt have a daycare its OK, it it does have a daycare then probably not OK to carry. Personally if I had to go into the YMCA here and couldn't carry I would be very very worried. From what I know the YMCA here is really just a 'gangsta' club house.

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    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    agreement by attorney.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I spent awhile rooting around the MI legislature and AG web sites looking for the definition of "day care center" ... but could fine none. I think that's what you're seeking: what is a DCC and when (if every) does it cease being one if in a personal home. Logic would suggest it ceases being one outside of school hours, given that its primary purpose is a private residence. But, unless you get a clear statement from the statutes or a competent attorney, it'll remain a gray area.
    My brother, an attorney, agrees. Once a home based daycare is closed for the day, it reverts back to being a private residence. It is only a daycare during the specific hours of operation unless a state law specifically forbids it. Under such circumstances even the home/daycare center owners would be prohibited from having firearms in their own residence.
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    The definitions of a Child care/Day care center are below. These are directly from the State of Michigan Dept of Human Svcs Licensing Manual:

    "Child care center" or "day care center" means a facility, other than a private residence, receiving 1 or more preschool or school age children for care for periods of less than 24 hours a day, and where the parents or guardians are not immediately available to the child. Child care center or day care center includes a facility that provides care for not less than 2 consecutive weeks, regardless of the number of hours of care per day.

    "Family day care home" means a private home in which 1 but fewer than 7 minor children are received for care and supervision for periods of less than 24 hours a day, unattended by a parent or legal guardian, except children related to an adult member of the family by blood, marriage, or adoption. Family day care home includes a home that gives care to an unrelated minor child for more than 4 weeks during a calendar year.

    Rules regarding Firearms from the State of Michigan Dept of Human Services Licensing Manual, sect. R 400.1935, (p. 1-3):

    Firearms
    (1) All firearms shall be unloaded and properly stored in a secure, safe, locked environment inaccessible to children. A secure locked environment shall include a commercially available locked firearms cabinet, gun safe, trigger lock that prevents discharge, or other locking firearm device.
    (2) Ammunition shall be stored in a separate locked location inaccessible to children.
    (3) Firearms shall not be traded or sold on the premises while child care children are present.

    ***Law enforcement officers who are required to keep their firearms loaded and ready for use at all times, may do so, as long as the firearm is inaccessible to children.

    Best practice is to check with local law enforcement agencies about the availability of free or low cost trigger locks.

    By definition, a Day Care center is defined as a "facility," and a family day care home is defined as a "private home." Your CPL lists Day care centers as a No Carry Zone. Note, these Licensing regulations, if violated represent a "licensing violation" not a criminal charge, therefore if violated, the Family day care home provider faces sanctions from the State Licensing board. In general, these rules apply to only when the daycare children are present, and the home is operating as a daycare.

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