When does a school building stop being a school?

When does a school building stop being a school?

This is a discussion on When does a school building stop being a school? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is another thread here, which asks is a daycare out of a personís home still off limits even after the daycare closes. Well, I ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24
  1. #1
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,163

    When does a school building stop being a school?

    There is another thread here, which asks is a daycare out of a personís home still off limits even after the daycare closes.

    Well, I want to expound upon that question, with what about actual schools, that are used for Church Service on Sunday or an evacuation shelter during a hurricane, or other functions that use the multipurpose building for something other than a school.

    Iíve researched Floridaís state law, and I do not see a clear distinction, between the two, and it states a school K-12 and colleges.

    So, I guess my question is when does a school building stop being a school? Or is the answer never.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    967
    A school premise is Gov. property at all times. @ no time does it cease being such.

    Parking/grounds...is ok (in TX) so long no school event is being held in parking area or the grounds.

  3. #3
    VIP Member
    Array 64zebra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Panhandle of Texas
    Posts
    6,452
    As with most things, its up to an idividual state's laws (for state restrictions, but don't forget federal).
    I can say what Texas says, but where you are may be different.
    Check your state laws, or anyone from Florida...chime in.
    LEO/CHL
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
    --G.W. McClintock

    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  4. #4
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,592
    A public school building will continue to be a school as long as the city/state lists it as a school. Even if they no longer hold classes there it is still a school building. A private school reverts to whatever the owner wants it to be if the school closes.

  5. #5
    Ron
    Ron is offline
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Linn, Oregon
    Posts
    1,628
    How about a church or temple that has a pre-school and religous school, but it is in a separate part of the building from the sanctuary.

    If, in the case of the temple, religous services are held Friday night and Saturday mornings when neither the pre-school or religous school are in operation, is it lawful to carry at services, bearing in mind that Florida law permits carry at church or temple?
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  6. #6
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post
    There is another thread here, which asks is a daycare out of a personís home still off limits even after the daycare closes.

    Well, I want to expound upon that question, with what about actual schools, that are used for Church Service on Sunday or an evacuation shelter during a hurricane, or other functions that use the multipurpose building for something other than a school.

    Iíve researched Floridaís state law, and I do not see a clear distinction, between the two, and it states a school K-12 and colleges.

    So, I guess my question is when does a school building stop being a school? Or is the answer never.
    Yup - in Florida at least, it is a school 24/7. Doesn't matter if it's being used by students or rented to an outside group.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    @ Wits' End
    Posts
    2,811
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    How about a church or temple that has a pre-school and religous school, but it is in a separate part of the building from the sanctuary.

    If, in the case of the temple, religous services are held Friday night and Saturday mornings when neither the pre-school or religous school are in operation, is it lawful to carry at services, bearing in mind that Florida law permits carry at church or temple?
    Ron,

    I've had this discussion somewhere (tho' it may have been on FL Concealed Carry) recently, and here some time back.

    My attorney has a buddy who is in the State's Attorney's Office in Tally as well as being a NRA guy. Their opinion is that you are good to go, except when school is in session (they interpret that as when students and teachers are still on the grounds).

    While it MAY be that the law would allow CC in areas of the church or synagogue campus NOT used for the school, and they personally think that makes sense, they were not willing to suggest someone being a test case since the interpreters of the law don't always use the same sense-o-meter that most of us probably would.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    @ Wits' End
    Posts
    2,811
    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Yup - in Florida at least, it is a school 24/7. Doesn't matter if it's being used by students or rented to an outside group.

    Matt
    +1, Matt.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    Ron
    Ron is offline
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Linn, Oregon
    Posts
    1,628
    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Ron,

    I've had this discussion somewhere (tho' it may have been on FL Concealed Carry) recently, and here some time back.

    My attorney has a buddy who is in the State's Attorney's Office in Tally as well as being a NRA guy. Their opinion is that you are good to go, except when school is in session (they interpret that as when students and teachers are still on the grounds).

    While it MAY be that the law would allow CC in areas of the church or synagogue campus NOT used for the school, and they personally think that makes sense, they were not willing to suggest someone being a test case since the interpreters of the law don't always use the same sense-o-meter that most of us probably would.

    Thanks for passing that along, Mike. That has been the way I have construed the law and, as indicated on the Forum previously, always carry at services. School is never in session at those times.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  10. #10
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,665

    The dual function facility

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    How about a church or temple that has a pre-school and religous school, but it is in a separate part of the building from the sanctuary.

    If, in the case of the temple, religous services are held Friday night and Saturday mornings when neither the pre-school or religous school are in operation, is it lawful to carry at services, bearing in mind that Florida law permits carry at church or temple?
    I'm going to do some speculation on this. I assume you are talking about a temple or synagogue that has religious school and maybe day care in the same structure as the sanctuary, but that the school and day care are not in operation on Friday nights, Saturday mornings, and other times when the sanctuary is in use; e.g., Purim.

    It would seem to me from a common sense point of view that at those times when the sanctuary is in use and the school is not in session, there is no school, and hence no prohibition to carry in the building.

    It is a different situation with public schools which are owned by a governmental entity and are government buildings at all times.

    The temple is private property, and the board, the president, the rabbi, are the folks who make the determination.

    That said, above is my guess and my opinion, and I could be as wrong as white wine at a Seder.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    @ Wits' End
    Posts
    2,811
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'm going to do some speculation on this. I assume you are talking about a temple or synagogue that has religious school and maybe day care in the same structure as the sanctuary, but that the school and day care are not in operation on Friday nights, Saturday mornings, and other times when the sanctuary is in use; e.g., Purim.

    It would seem to me from a common sense point of view that at those times when the sanctuary is in use and the school is not in session, there is no school, and hence no prohibition to carry in the building.

    It is a different situation with public schools which are owned by a governmental entity and are government buildings at all times.

    The temple is private property, and the board, the president, the rabbi, are the folks who make the determination.

    That said, above is my guess and my opinion, and I could be as wrong as white wine at a Seder.
    Hopyard,

    While I agree with you 100%, I just wish there was something in print that said the law will always make sense. Part of the problem in our country is that what seems to make sense to most of us law-abiding, intelligent, gun-owning, freedom-loving types (well, some of us are some of those ), doesn't seem to make sense to judges and prosecutors, or even juries.

    Okay, back in my hole...
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  12. #12
    VIP Member
    Array DaveH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    SW Virginia
    Posts
    5,036
    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    As with most things, its up to an idividual state's laws (for state restrictions, but don't forget federal).
    Absolutely -- it's State by State.

    Here in Virginia the real trap is that the restriction also covers private and religious owned K-12, not just government owned. Some religious owned pre-schools are also accredited as K-?. As long as there is any K and up (BTW -- CHP holders may possess a loaded concealed handgun while in a vehicle. )

    Also, most agree the restriction covers all the property, not just the portion used for the school.

    I don't know of any test cases. Don't want to be one.

    Ditto when students and teachers are not on the grounds. Don't want to be a test case there, either.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  13. #13
    Ron
    Ron is offline
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Linn, Oregon
    Posts
    1,628
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'm going to do some speculation on this. I assume you are talking about a temple or synagogue that has religious school and maybe day care in the same structure as the sanctuary, but that the school and day care are not in operation on Friday nights, Saturday mornings, and other times when the sanctuary is in use; e.g., Purim

    The temple is private property, and the board, the president, the rabbi, are the folks who make the determination.
    That is exactly what I am talking about. And, neither the Board, President or Rabbi have ever addressed this issue. In fact, I think, but am not positive, that the president carrys.

    Interesting that you should mention Purim. We have a huge Purim Festival for the kids, rides and activities of all kinds, both inside and outside. We will have Temple members as well as non-members attend since the entire community is welcome.

    Although school is not technically in session, the classroom part of the building is open for visitors who would like a tour.

    I always carry since I am there with my grandkids, but do not go inside the Temple building because, under those circumstances, I am uncertain whether it would be legal. Better safe, then sorry. I also do not wish to be the "test case."
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; March 6th, 2009 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  14. #14
    Member Array CowboyKen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    386
    Nevada law provides:
    NRS: CHAPTER 202 - CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY

    NRS 202.3673 Permittee authorized to carry concealed firearm while on premises of public building; exceptions; penalty.

    1. Except as otherwise provided in subsections 2 and 3, a permittee may carry a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of any public building.
    ...
    3. A permittee shall not carry a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of:

    (a) A public building that is located on the property of a public school or a child care facility or the property of the Nevada System of Higher Education, unless the permittee has obtained written permission to carry a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subparagraph (3) of paragraph (a) of subsection 3 of NRS 202.265.
    ...

    5. A person who violates subsection 2 or 3 is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    6. As used in this section:

    (a) “Child care facility” has the meaning ascribed to it in paragraph (a) of subsection 5 of NRS 202.265.

    (b) “Public building” means any building or office space occupied by:

    (1) Any component of the Nevada System of Higher Education and used for any purpose related to the System; or

    (2) The Federal Government, the State of Nevada or any county, city, school district or other political subdivision of the State of Nevada and used for any public purpose. If only part of the building is occupied by an entity described in this subsection, the term means only that portion of the building which is so occupied.

    (Added to NRS by 1995, 2725; A 1997, 63; 1999, 2767; 2007, 1914)

    ---------------------------------
    IANAL, but by my reading in Nevada, private schools are OK to carry. All “Child care facility(s),” as defined are forbidden at all times. And components of the Nevada System of Higher Education are forbidden when "used for any purpose related to the System." This has led to some discussion on Nevada boards as to wheter it is OK to carry at a concert at the arena on the UNLV campus.

    Such a nasty can of worms.

    Ken

  15. #15
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,665

    It needs to be addressed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post

    That is exactly what I am talking about. And, neither the Board, President or Rabbi have ever addressed this issue. In fact, I think, but am not positive, that the president carrys.
    Well, there you have the answer. The board needs to address the issue and get some sort of written policy and legal advice if needed.

    There are good reasons why cc should happen at a Jewish religious school and at services: and if not, armed guards should be hired, or the regular police should be providing close protection. Even in NYC, as far back as the early to mid-1950s, the city put an officer at the entrance, and that was long before anyone heard the word "terrorism."

    There is a significant public safety issue here that needs to be addressed, and possibly needs to be addressed by the FL leg or attny general.

    So, this isn't a trivial question or issue.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. 7 Year Old Fires Gun at School Bus Stop
    By skot in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: November 15th, 2009, 01:36 PM
  2. School teacher is also an LEO. Can he carry in school?
    By paramedic70002 in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: October 27th, 2008, 08:25 AM
  3. idiot CCL parent at the Middle School bus stop
    By goldshellback in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: October 15th, 2007, 07:49 PM
  4. School Teacher suing to carry at school -- Portland, OR
    By ccw9mm in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: October 10th, 2007, 03:48 PM
  5. Anti Gun / School Rampage Book Pushed on School Kids
    By Musketeer in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: October 5th, 2006, 04:26 PM

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors