Church shooting in Illinois (merged)

This is a discussion on Church shooting in Illinois (merged) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; the next time I hear someone from my church wonder why we have some member off-duty officers working security at all church functions, I'll print ...

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Thread: Church shooting in Illinois (merged)

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    the next time I hear someone from my church wonder why we have some member off-duty officers working security at all church functions, I'll print off this news story for them
    14 church shootings since 1999. 43 murdered, another 35 wounded (not including the perpetrators).
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sejune View Post
    ...but it's think kind of article that shows we are not safe...not even at our places of worship.
    Help him see: y'all never have been, ever. At the end of the day, prayer, alone, simply isn't enough to stop such things from happening. About all that can be done is to mitigate the effects via pre-planning and taking specific steps.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    I can't imagine many churches that don't have liability insurance these days. Many people see churches as easy pickin's and having deep pockets. Would there be additional riders necessary? Maybe.
    The fact that the church sanctioned it may give them some legal liability as they said it was ok to use a security force made up of parishioners ratehr than "professionals" which means they knew their credentials. Essentially if the people wish to due this they might consider getting an armed security license and then take up this activity if they want to make their security official in the eyes of the churches insurance company.

  5. #64
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    I heard that the gun of the killer jammed. Thank God for that. Or he could have killed alot more people.

    I know this is horrible, and I feel for the family and all the people there. But the Good news is we all are going to die one day, to die while preaching the word of God I'm sure he went straight to heaven.

    the whole incident is crazy. Now priest or ministers are going to have to arm themselves?

    What's gone wrong in this country? Has it always been like this? Are do we just here more because of easy info getting?
    Or has something broken in America? Why are so many innocent people getting killed? Is this New?

    My mom is 81 years old and she told me she hitchiked from new york to california, selling magazines along the way. They Never locked doors.

    sorry i don't know if these questions belong on this thread?
    I'm praying for them.
    Steve

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    Not even safe in church anymore. Makes me want to carry at mine now that I've seen this. My wife is from the Marxist-State of Illinois, where the Rulers hate fireams in the hands of law abiding citizens. One lawfully carrying person could possibly have prevented the act or at least dispatched the perpetrator to the next world. We do need a collective prayer for the vicitim, his family and all who had to witness this senseless act.

  7. #66
    PM
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    There is one issue that we all are forgetting --- most of the people in the service thought the guy approaching the pastor was part of a skit or part of the service therefore no one was prepared to deal with the threat. I carry every Sunday and would take out an active shooter. The problem is this guy only would have hit my radar as a threat after the first discharge of the gun. Some one walking down the isle of a Baptist church is not an issue. I will bet the pastor thought the guy had a spiritual need and was willing to stop the service to do ministry with and for the shooter. His reward is to get to see Jesus a bit earlier than was in his plan.

    I say this to ask how many of us would think twice about some one come to the front of the church (before yesterday)? Now I will be watching a bit closer and will be attempting to be the one asking "Can I help you?" so as to protect my pastor. I will also be watching hands and eyes as I talk to the person!

    If there was security would they have responded?

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PM View Post
    There is one issue that we all are forgetting --- most of the people in the service thought the guy approaching the pastor was part of a skit or part of the service therefore no one was prepared to deal with the threat. I carry every Sunday and would take out an active shooter. The problem is this guy only would have hit my radar as a threat after the first discharge of the gun. Some one walking down the isle of a Baptist church is not an issue. I will bet the pastor thought the guy had a spiritual need and was willing to stop the service to do ministry with and for the shooter. His reward is to get to see Jesus a bit earlier than was in his plan.

    I say this to ask how many of us would think twice about some one come to the front of the church (before yesterday)? Now I will be watching a bit closer and will be attempting to be the one asking "Can I help you?" so as to protect my pastor. I will also be watching hands and eyes as I talk to the person!

    If there was security would they have responded?
    Clearly, one answer to this would be to make sure that those on a 'security team' would know ahead of time what would happen in a skit, or throughout the service, especially if it involved anything that would set off the 'spidey sense' of sheepdogs in the congregation.

    As to the rest of your post, you are right. Someone coming down the aisle would probably not have been thought of as that out of the ordinary. Now, at some other churches-different story. At mine, where everybody wants to sit on the back pew, a totally different issue.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  9. #68
    Member Array SweetSig's Avatar
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    It was exactly for these reasons that 8 months ago myself and about 10 other men in my church(we all carry) got together and decided exactly what we would do in the case of a gunman or a hostage situation (i.e. someone getting to the children in nursery, God forbid). We continue to pray that we will never have to use our weapon inside the church.

    Not long after we did that we had a nut-job come to the church threatening to drive through the building unless he could talk to his 'girlfriend' inside. Long story short, he spent some quality time in a cell.
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." ~Thomas Jefferson~

    "...Be not ye afraid of them: remember the LORD, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses." ~Nehemiah 4:14~

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    Wink Nope, didn't happen, this story was made up by the press

    We all know how restrictive gun laws are in that state, so no law abiding honest citizen could have possibly done this, and of coarse the criminals obey the law too... Don't they?????
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  11. #70
    PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    At mine, where everybody wants to sit on the back pew, a totally different issue.
    But Mike, you are still discribing the average Baptist church!! I have only been in three churches that did not fill from the back forward; one was a Charasmatic fellowship I hug out with in college filled from the front back and two out of the three American Baptist Churches I pastored filled from the middle back then forward from the middile to the front. This pattern even occurred at the funeral for one of the dear saints of the church. Every other church I have been apart of filled back (or almost back)to front.

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PM View Post
    But Mike, you are still discribing the average Baptist church!! I have only been in three churches that did not fill from the back forward; one was a Charasmatic fellowship I hug out with in college filled from the front back and two out of the three American Baptist Churches I pastored filled from the middle back then forward from the middile to the front. This pattern even occurred at the funeral for one of the dear saints of the church. Every other church I have been apart of filled back (or almost back)to front.
    Thanks, I feel better.

    I accuse them of just trying to avoid the splash zone.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

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    Sadly, there are some headlines out now indicating that the shooter was known to be insane. Long before this incident the family complained (I think in a press article) that the shooter went insane from either Lyme disease or the treatments for it.

    I don't know how realistic this is, whether or not the illness can cause the type of outburst seen. I do know that there are other bacterial diseases--most notably syphilis-- which cause dementia. Lyme is somewhat similar to syphilis but not the same disease. So the news article might not be too far fetched.

    In any case, what an awful awful unfortunate set of events.

  14. #73
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    Had this man's gun not jammed, he may well have killed the pastor then continued killing other church members at random. Since no one is allowed to carry in Illinois, these people would have been no better off than cattle in a slaughter house. Not allowing someone the basic human right of self defense is obscene.

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    Lyme's disease....yea right. Poor ticks are getting the blame for the chimp attack last week and now this.

    Much more likely to be schizophrenia given his age and history. When one hears hoofbeats in Missouri, it's probably a horse and NOT a zebra (nor a unicorn, depending on which ID guy you believe).

    No matter what the diagnosis ends up being, this is still tragic.

    Perhaps we should make all churches mental health disease-free zones?
    "The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us." Patrick Henry 1775

    Vegetarian: Indian for inept hunter.

  16. #75
    Member Array SweetSig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghuqu2 View Post
    Lyme's disease....yea right. Poor ticks are getting the blame for the chimp attack last week and now this.
    Some very good friends of mine have had their family wracked by this disease which they DID get from a tick. I feel no sorrow for the tick.
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." ~Thomas Jefferson~

    "...Be not ye afraid of them: remember the LORD, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses." ~Nehemiah 4:14~

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