CCW in a bar or club

This is a discussion on CCW in a bar or club within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi everyone, here's my first post and I want to thank all of you for the wealth of knowledge I have already obtained from reading ...

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Thread: CCW in a bar or club

  1. #1
    New Member Array flybriz's Avatar
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    CCW in a bar or club

    Hi everyone, here's my first post and I want to thank all of you for the wealth of knowledge I have already obtained from reading this forum. I recently received my CCL and would appreciate opinions on this scenario. I play in a band, and from time to time we gig at establishments that aren't in the best part of town. Occasionally the venue's load-in/load-out is not ideal. Load-in is usually not a problem in the summer months as it is still daylight, but our load-out is typically around 2-3am, and can be out the back door of the venue, into an alleyway, or a poorly lit area. During these undesirable load-out scenarios I do everything I can to keep my SA high, but I still feel unprepared. We are stuffing more than $10k of equipment in a trailer in areas that are off the beaten path, and I envision scenarios where a person or group of persons take advantage of the opportunity and try to steal it. My gear is certainly not worth taking a person's life (BG or not) but I want to be prepared for the possibility that my life or the lives of my band mates might be in danger during the theft attempt. In Oklahoma (and probably many other states) it is illegal to CC in an establishment that sells liquor. Load-out typically takes 10-15 trips in and out of the venue. If you were me, would you ignore the law and carry while in this situation? A couple of finer points on how I was thinking about handling the scenario:

    - I would not carry while playing in the venue. I would keep my gun secured in my vehicle and procure it after the show is over and before we begin our load-out. So technically I'm only carrying after the venue is closed and only to walk in and get equipment.
    - I typically enjoy a few beers when we play, but on nights where the load-out location is potentially unsafe and I make the decision to carry, I would have ZERO liquor.

    Thanks for any input.

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  3. #2
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    That sounds like a practical plan and probably the way I would handle it myself, if I were you.
    I would definately be sure that my weapon is secured in a suitable safe if I ever had to leave it in a vehicle.
    Stay alert, stay safe, and rock on.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Bring and carry on body within the venue as you play and pack in/out a defensive purpose knife.

    People get hung up on the gun thing. Handguns are not the only defensive tools on the block. And aside from a knife there is pepper spray too as well as improvised weaponry.
    Think out of the box and thus do not allow yourself to be boxed in be it by law or environmental circumstance.

    Welcome to the board!

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #4
    New Member Array flybriz's Avatar
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    Thank you both for the comments! Agreed on the improvised weaponry - A lead base microphone stand to the side of the head could qualify as such. I look into a good defensive knife as well - pepper spray is already in the toolkit.

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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I'm not going to comment on most of your post, with this exception:

    but on nights where the load-out location is potentially unsafe and I make the decision to carry,
    If you know it's unsafe, why are you going there? A smart man or woman will avoid places they know are unsafe.

    In short, and this is something I learned a long time ago:
    THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE.

    If you feel you need a gun, you don't need to be there. I don't carry a gun anyplace that I wouldn't go without a gun. I avoid locations where I think I may need a gun.

    Biker

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Have you buddies bring the equipment to the back door where you can load it in the van without stepping into the bar and legally be carrying concealed,I hope your equipment is insured cause 10,000 is a big chunk just to gtive awway,and unless you got a crystal ball ,you don't know if they want to leave any witnesses
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I'm not going to comment on most of your post, with this exception:



    If you know it's unsafe, why are you going there? A smart man or woman will avoid places they know are unsafe.

    In short, and this is something I learned a long time ago:
    THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE.

    If you feel you need a gun, you don't need to be there. I don't carry a gun anyplace that I wouldn't go without a gun. I avoid locations where I think I may need a gun.

    Biker
    Words of wisdom from the Biker. I couldn't agree more.

  9. #8
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flybriz View Post
    - I would not carry while playing in the venue. I would keep my gun secured in my vehicle and procure it after the show is over and before we begin our load-out. So technically I'm only carrying after the venue is closed and only to walk in and get equipment.
    - I typically enjoy a few beers when we play, but on nights where the load-out location is potentially unsafe and I make the decision to carry, I would have ZERO liquor.

    Thanks for any input.

    Sounds like a good idea to me. Except for one thing, I would assume that any load out location is potentially unsafe.
    This reminds me of a night that I was hanging out with Killing Joke after a show in Germany and the roadies caught a guy stealing a guitar.....he had a rough night.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; March 20th, 2009 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed with PNut and Biker.

    Everywhere has potential.
    Not even moms womb is an absolute safe place.
    There is simply no such thing as a "safe" place, especially at night never mind being amongst a bar or club where other people with problems (mental, social, personal) might gather to drink alcohol.

    Myself I can and do attend events and visit bars and clubs and not drink any alcohol at all...and have a fine time.
    If I were a musician as you are Flybriz that's how I'd play things as well. No alcohol and stay aware whilst having fun.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by flybriz View Post
    Hi everyone, here's my first post and I want to thank all of you for the wealth of knowledge I have already obtained from reading this forum. I recently received my CCL and would appreciate opinions on this scenario. I play in a band, and from time to time we gig at establishments that aren't in the best part of town. Occasionally the venue's load-in/load-out is not ideal. Load-in is usually not a problem in the summer months as it is still daylight, but our load-out is typically around 2-3am, and can be out the back door of the venue, into an alleyway, or a poorly lit area. During these undesirable load-out scenarios I do everything I can to keep my SA high, but I still feel unprepared. We are stuffing more than $10k of equipment in a trailer in areas that are off the beaten path, and I envision scenarios where a person or group of persons take advantage of the opportunity and try to steal it. My gear is certainly not worth taking a person's life (BG or not) but I want to be prepared for the possibility that my life or the lives of my band mates might be in danger during the theft attempt. In Oklahoma (and probably many other states) it is illegal to CC in an establishment that sells liquor. Load-out typically takes 10-15 trips in and out of the venue. If you were me, would you ignore the law and carry while in this situation? A couple of finer points on how I was thinking about handling the scenario:

    - I would not carry while playing in the venue. I would keep my gun secured in my vehicle and procure it after the show is over and before we begin our load-out. So technically I'm only carrying after the venue is closed and only to walk in and get equipment.
    - I typically enjoy a few beers when we play, but on nights where the load-out location is potentially unsafe and I make the decision to carry, I would have ZERO liquor.

    Thanks for any input.
    Actually it is not against the law to carry in a place that sells alcohol. In the type of businesses you are playing in, yes it would be, but it is not a blanket type thing.

    TITLE 21 1272.1. Carrying firearms where liquor is consumed
    CARRYING FIREARMS WHERE LIQUOR IS CONSUMED
    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry or possess any weapon
    designated in Section 1272 of this title in any establishment where
    low-point beer, as defined by Section 163.2 of Title 37 of the
    Oklahoma Statutes, or alcoholic beverages, as defined by Section 506
    of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, are consumed. This provision
    shall not apply to a peace officer, as defined in Section 99 of this title,
    or to private investigators with a firearms authorization when acting in
    the scope and course of employment, and shall not apply to an owner or proprietor of the establishment having a pistol, rifle, or shotgun on the premises. Provided however, a person possessing a valid concealed handgun license pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma
    Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1 et seq. of this title may carry the
    concealed handgun into any restaurant or other establishment licensed
    to dispense low-point beer or alcoholic beverages where the sale of
    low-point beer or alcoholic beverages does not constitute the primary
    purpose of the business.
    In your situation I would carry pepper spray and a defensive folding knife. Although not the best options they are better than 911.

  12. #11
    Member Array Chroode's Avatar
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    Mmmmmmmm tough one, but not impossible.

    I'm not thrilled about leaving the weapon in the car.

    I would call the owner and ask if he has a place to secure it during the show.

    If not, I would hope to have, or find, a place that no one but me/band has access to and hide it there.

    If you had to defend yourself outside after the show it would be tough for them to prove you had it in the establishment unless you confessed to it.

    Permit violation versus you being in the hospital or morgue

  13. #12
    New Member Array flybriz's Avatar
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    Great advice everyone, thanks. Calling LILO's "Safe" and "Potentially Unsafe" is relative, I know... Here's how I differentiate the two:

    "Safe" - LILO from the front entrance, well lit, open parking lot, security on staff
    "Potentially Unsafe" - LILO from the back, side, or alley, poorly lit, obstructions/hiding places such as fences and dumpsters, no security on staff

    I'd love to pick and choose the venues but Tulsa's music scene is small and that's difficult to do and still gig regularly. That being said, I always keep my head on a swivel and have learned to respect and obey that "bad vibe" feeling in my gut.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
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    I too play in a band and I understand your situation very well. We generally have guys who travel with us to help with the load in and load out so someone else who carries can stand guard by the bus while were loading in.

    My carry stays on the bus. I do, as Janq suggested, carry a knife all the times in the club.

    Generally, we are not in too many bad places. For those who dont know about traveling in a band, you dont always know where you're playing that night. The agent books you and gives the details on the gig. You show up and do the gig. You do not know the neighborhoods.
    My Music: www.reverbnation.com/dickiefredericks
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    Distinguished Member Array T Bone's Avatar
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    I thought the same as Dukalmighty mentioned with having others hand you stuff to load at the door. You could remain outside for the entire load out and be legally armed.

    Regarding ignoring the law, those of you new here need to take a quick look at the rules. Discussion of illegal activities such as deliberately carrying where not legal to do so is expressly prohibited.

    Too bad your State law doesn't exempt employees of the establishment like Michigan's does, I was thinking here being paid to play there makes you an employee of sorts. I think you'd be legal here. I see Ok. only allows the owner/proprietor to be armed.
    Regards, T Bone.


    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". Benjamin Franklin

  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    If the area is that bad, then don't go there. If it is illegal to carry, then don't carry.

    We brag about how honest and law abiding we are, but when it not convenient too many do not intend to obey the law.

    Integrity is worth more than safety.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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