What Do CPR and CCW have in common?

This is a discussion on What Do CPR and CCW have in common? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think this is a great comparison. Story is here. Thursday, February 16, 2006 Good For The Country, by John Longenecker. The Liberty Message Outside ...

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Thread: What Do CPR and CCW have in common?

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    Member Array Mongo's Avatar
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    What Do CPR and CCW have in common?

    I think this is a great comparison. Story is here.

    Thursday, February 16, 2006

    Good For The Country, by John Longenecker.
    The Liberty Message Outside The Liberty Community.

    H.R. 4547, Part II: What Do CPR (Cardio-pulmonary Recuscitation) and CCW (Concealed Carry Of Weapons) have in common?

    Here’s an idea I’ve had in my head since 1970. From this former EMS Professional’s point of view – a Liberty Enthusiast’s viewpoint – CPR and Concealed Carry are identical. It shakes out like this: each citizen intervention is necessary because the situation is grave and because first responders are not immediately available. Each saves lives.

    1. Each can be managed by the individual on scene, if willing, if trained, by the fact that one is present and already in both legal and moral authority to act. Many non-gun owners do not know their legal authority in such instances. The morality of it is another issue. How awareness and inclusion of one's authority impacts household safety planning is important.

    2. First responders are not available, perhaps not likely to arrive in time. This is a connection between how to face criminal violence and how one faces a medical emergency.

    3. The situation is grave, in the judgment of the citizen. [This is why authority is important.] The problem is not with the law-abiding - dire forecasts of bloodshed never materialized. The problem is with officials who frustrate the authority individuals have, our sovereignty.

    We are not talking about questioning the constitutionality of income taxes, and we’re not talking about drawing a weapon at the slightest provocation: we’re talking about the authority citizens already possess to act in their own defense in time of grave danger or great bodily injury and only then, and the political refusal to officially recognize it throughout the U.S.

    We know that individuals acting to protect themselves in the face of grave danger are not taking the law into their own hands – we are the law. Officials derive their authority from the people, the persons wrongly accused of taking the law into their own hands, called Vigilante and worse. These accusers have no understanding of sovereignty in America.

    Most households forget this in their household safety planning.

    Most debates leave out the grave danger part and muddy the waters arguing all sorts of less-than-grave scenarios. Concealed carry advocates are speaking only of grave danger and severe bodily injury regarding defense of self or defense of another. That’s all.

    In the middle seventies, when I was a full-time Paramedic, EMS professionals nationwide were asked by the American Heart Association to give an organized presentation to private physicians and attorneys to get behind the push to bring CPR into the lay community. It was called Citizen CPR. It is now known as Bystander CPR.

    The main question from the audience was this: why don’t we leave it to the professionals such as yourself?

    I answered that the Squad cannot always arrive within a life-saving response time of under three minutes, and unless CPR is begun – by someone – the cardiac arrest patient will die. [There are many non-heart-disease situations where cardiac arrest ensues across all age groups, such as choking or electrocutions or near drownings – there are several common emergencies that will deteriorate into a full cardo-pulmonic arrest, what we call premature death. Bystander CPR can make all the difference by keeping the patient alive by pumping an unpumping heart until the Advanced Life Support arrives.]

    The combination of no first responders and grave danger justfies lay intervention.

    Historical Note: These professionals of course already knew that in cardiac arrest, brain death begins in four minutes; the significance of this was that, in a clinical setting, the cardiac arrest Code Blue Crash Cart is down the hall, a push-button alarm and a few paces away, able to arrive within seconds.

    However, in an out-of-hospital setting, where many cardiac arrests occur, the Advanced Life Support Unit [The Paramedics] is the crash cart, and we’re not exactly down the hall. Someone – a trained person already on scene – could keep the lid on until the Squad arrives.

    To this day, public buildings such as courthouses, civic centers and other places managed by officials are still in need of in-house CPR trained persons and an overall response plan even though they are directly next door to a Fire Station. The illusion of propinquity in response can be a fatal mistake.

    Starting to see a connection in citizen involvement?

    In cases of cardiac arrest, CPR on scene vastly improves the patient’s chances, because, as we used to say, "We can’t be everywhere." This was too vague; let me call it the way it is: the ALS Unit cannot always arrive with a life-saving response time of under three minutes.

    Guess what: in time of violent crime, neither can law enforcement.

    The Goleta Postal shooting is a perfect example of how fast it can all happen, and usually does.

    What it takes to process an emergency request for aid for Police is very much like dispatching Paramedics. Presuming that you recognize the emergency and presuming that you can complete the call for aid. In the case of a crime, someone would very much like to stop you. In fact, they might even start thinking about no witnesses. Murders number in the tens of thousands and most murders are not solved. Many murders are the result of a lesser offense somehow escalating.

    This is the identity of values between how EMS and the Heart Association get excited about training citizens and having faith in citizens to act until assets arrive, and how 38 states have enough faith in their citizens to act, too, when it comes to facing grave danger with the use of deadly force in response.

    The key that makes it all work is that, in the case of a field cardiac arrest where the bystander can keep the patient alive until assets arrive, so an armed citizen can keep a life-threatening situation from escalating. It works more than 2.5 million time a year, but where it's needed most -- Kalifornia, New York, Washington, D.C. and San Francisco -- it's frustrated the most. You could say that most of those homicides were unresisted and that the victims died needlessly.

    Finally, of all people, law enforcement believes in the people. Law enforcement believes in justice. Was there much doubt? Check out this link for details and click through to view the fraternity’s .pdf survey document. Not surprisingly, law enforcement is an ally of personal concealed carry.

    Where H.R. 4547 is concerned, it’s time to restore the right to self-defense nationwide, whether officials agree or not.

    When a target is unwilling to be the victim, when first responders are not going to make it in time, and when the situation is grave – why tie the hands of the givers to society another day by saying they may not meet aggression with righteous superior force? After all, they're not criminals.

    Fighting crime is not done by adhering to policies which disarm the innocent and never reach the criminal – crime is defeated instance by instance by exercising sovereign authority and righteous superior force.

    This is the authority we give our law enforcement without giving up any of our own.

    Urge your officials to vote for nationwide concealed carry.

    And learn CPR and First-aid.

    They're both good for the country.


    story posted here for the permanent forum record ~ QKS
    Mongo only pawn .... in game of life.

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  3. #2
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    Good article. I have a carry permit and am trained in CRP/first aid. It's not that I don't have faith in law enforcement or EMS - I just know that in the valuable seconds and minutes before they arrive, anything can happen - and I, and only I, am truly responsible for myself.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

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    Distinguished Member Array 4my son's Avatar
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    Can we get a big AMEN on that, I was part of the safety team when I worked in a production plant all through the 90's. First aid and CPR certified. I still have the cheat sheet for CPR in my wallet right next to my CCW. I never thought about the two of them being so simmilar in spirit.

    So does that mean that we are all not crazy monsters after all. LOL



    I guess this brings up another question. If you are 100% sure that the BG you just blasted is the only threat around, would you be inclined to check on him and provide aid, or just call 911. Assuming that you have ability after the adrenaline rush fades and your legs turn to Jello. I don't know what to think about there.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

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    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    I'm certified in CPR and First Aid as well........seconds count in any crisis situation.
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

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    Distinguished Member Array BCurry1's Avatar
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    Just makes good sense to me.
    Curry

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    Good article, thanks. I had not thought of framing CCW in terms of CPR. Another argument added to the arsenal.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

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    That's a great article, going to keep that one someplace.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    When a target is unwilling to be the victim, when first responders are not going to make it in time, and when the situation is grave why tie the hands of the givers to society another day by saying they may not meet aggression with righteous superior force? After all, they're not criminals.

    Fighting crime is not done by adhering to policies which disarm the innocent and never reach the criminal crime is defeated instance by instance by exercising sovereign authority and righteous superior force.
    Yep.

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    Member Array CraigJS's Avatar
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    This then brings up the thought...
    BG you just needed to shoot to save your life or anothers. Is he a drug user, perhaps an IV drug user, perhaps infected with AIDs, and looking for "fix" money?
    Will you risk the contamination (blood) to do CPR? If so, perhaps giving yourself, a "life sentance".
    Please no flames. I'm playing devils advocate here...

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    Senior Member Array czman2006's Avatar
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    As a EMT, the first rule of EMS is to protect yourself, your partner, bystanders, then the patient. If I have to shoot a BG and I don't have my latex gloves with me, he's going to lie there and bleed while I call 911. Fact of life!
    "Let not your heart be troubled." John 14:1

    USN Retired Vietnam/Desert Shield/Desert Storm

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    Fighting crime is not done by adhering to policies which disarm the innocent and never reach the criminal ? crime is defeated instance by instance by exercising sovereign authority and righteous superior force.
    That I like - a LOT!!!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigJS
    This then brings up the thought...
    BG you just needed to shoot to save your life or anothers. Is he a drug user, perhaps an IV drug user, perhaps infected with AIDs, and looking for "fix" money?
    Will you risk the contamination (blood) to do CPR? If so, perhaps giving yourself, a "life sentance".
    Please no flames. I'm playing devils advocate here...
    No flame, Craig! We've discussed this before. My point is still this: you will have to prove that the "aid" you rendered was not what ultimately killed the BG. Now if his cranial pan is laying on the sidewalk, or his heart was forcibly ejected from his chest by the Desert Eagle .50AE you shot him with, it's pretty moot. Usually, it won't be that clear-cut. Unless you're confident in being able to prove "beyond reasonable doubt", and to a "resonable individual" that you did no harm, after the shoot, you'll lose your freedom, and possibly most of your material assests. I would not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by czman2006
    As a EMT, the first rule of EMS is to protect yourself, your partner, bystanders, then the patient. If I have to shoot a BG and I don't have my latex gloves with me, he's going to lie there and bleed while I call 911. Fact of life!
    I have to agree with czman.

    I am a American Red Cross Certified First Aid/CPR/AED Instructor, if I have to shoot some sorry SOB for threatening my life I doubt that I'm going to further risk my life to save his. Especially since I don't carry latex gloves, micro shield, etc. with me other than when I am on the job.

    As far as I'm concened he made his decision when he forced me to shoot him. Remember guys and gals, HE makes the decision on whether or not you fire your weapon. I don't make that decision. He has left us no other option.

    He made his bed, let him bleed in it.

    Sorry if that seems cold, but I couldn't care less whether he lives or dies at that moment.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

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    As far as I'm concened he made his decision when he forced me to shoot him. Remember guys and gals, HE makes the decision on whether or not you fire your weapon. I don't make that decision. He has left us no other option.
    That Bob is the bottom line - and I could not agree more. Harsh but solid fact.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array Wayne's Avatar
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    I have CCW, I also maintain CPR/1st Aid, as well as advanced Aid w/minor surgical procedures. I also have training in decontamination techniques as well as fire fighting techniques.

    All of these are tools at my disposal, that's all they are. Each can save lives, as well as take them (or allow them to die) if I use wrongly or do not use at all.

    Wayne

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