There's a handgun in my pants right now ... its neither dangerous nor illegal.
This is a discussion on How would YOU interpret this? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would probably carry, however I would also understand that if found out I would be terminated under this clause or possibly another one they ...
I would probably carry, however I would also understand that if found out I would be terminated under this clause or possibly another one they like better. It is up to lawyers and judges to determine what it means. You may or may not be able to win a judgement in a civil court after the dust settles, however you will still be unemployed.
My company has an equally ambiguous policy statement on "weapons". No unauthorized weapons on company property. They neglect to tell us who may authorize weapons per company policy. My manager says we are authorized. Do I know that won't hold up, sure I do. That's how it goes.
There's a handgun in my pants right now ... its neither dangerous nor illegal.
But - oh hmmm - nope, better not say anything or self ban might be in orderThere's a handgun in my pants right now ... its neither dangerous nor illegal.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
While there may be a defense to criminal prosecution with creative legal argument over "appropriate notice", and definition of property in the wording of the statement: "No dangerous or illegal firearm is allowed on company property." .
HOWEVER, in Texas where you are writing from, you could still be fired from your job due the company's interpretation of the manual and there is little you could do about it.
But-I am not a lawyer and you should seek legal advice from an attorney in this matter for a definitive answer.
Ahh.. there's the rub.Originally Posted by Trainman
It's the company's intent to which we are responding to. While my employment might be in jeopardy based on their intent and interpretation of their own rule, the argument could be made that they were not completely definitive in their expectations.
Also, it is a union shop .. and though Texas falls under an "at will" employment situation, due cause for termination would have to be present, would it not?
"We must remember that one man is much
the same as another, and that he is best
who is trained in the severest school."
~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War
That does sound like they're trying to bar cretins from carrying while giving the law-abiding CCWers a little bit of wiggle room. But only a lawyer can properly translate legalese. I'd ask someone who has passed a bar exam.
“Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it.” ~Pericles of Athens
Primary Carry - Colt Commander .45 in a Brommeland Max-Con V
I really think that in the way it's worded a, (oh I hate this idea), "good laywer", could blow them away in an arbitration hearing, if you were to be found out and they wanted to terminate you over this. All for the very reasons stated above.
I say carry and be discrete.
Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences
"I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
DE OPPRESSO LIBER
A Lawyer might help determine this issue. Colorado is an "at will" state too. I am told, the employer needs no reason, just a "pink slip". Now in your case the union might have some limitation, (defined reasons for termination) but you could find that in the union handbook I guess.Also, it is a union shop .. and though Texas falls under an "at will" employment situation, due cause for termination would have to be present, would it not?
It’s so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)
“The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,” the Sheriff said.
Just my $.02: Are you married and supporting a family? My first question would be if you're caught and fired (And I think it's highly probably that you would be fired, "IF" caught) how would your wife feel and how would you stand financially? Very few people can afford to fight even a slam dunk case in court and with the bias that exists today against guns in generally, this would be anything but a slam dunk. Would you have months and thousands upon thousands of dollars to fight it? Or would you be compelled by financial necessity to simply take the lump and move on to another job. How you feel about this aspect of it ought to be part of your decision making process. I have a wife and six children so I rarely do what I want or would like to. Instead I usually do what I believe is in the best interests of my family.
As for the interpretation of the sign, it's written simply to give the employer the greatest ability to cover as many possible weapons and scenarios under it. If your gun is seen but you aren't fired, it could still be trouble in that it could prejudice different bosses or managers against you.
If it were me, I'd assume that if I ever got caught, I'd be fired an unable or unwilling to absorb the cost of what? Getting my old job back? I don't think I'd enjoy working somewhere where I just got my job back by suing them. And there wouldn't be enough "penalty" opportunity in a wrongful firing suit to make it worth it. In other words, they're aren't going to give you a million dollars for pain and suffering for wrongful termination.
So based on all of that, I'd assess the risk, consider the ethics of the situation. Yes, I do think there are ethics involved here although it hasn't been really mentioned....
And then you have to make the final call.
Last thought. Almost everyone thinks that guns aren't dangerous. I have to agree and disagree. I understand what you're all saying. I've taught my littlest children that Daddy's guns can't hurt you if you don't tough them. It's only when we handle them that they can become dangerous. But lets face it, why do we preach the four rules of safe gun handling? Because of how potentially dangerous guns are! When they say dangerous, they aren't talking about the weapon as it sits on a table, they're talking about it as it might be employeed by a person. And it doesn't matter what dangerous items are found in a plant if they're used to perform the job.
So I think the average court would agree that a gun or knife is indeed a dangerous item. If you take a dinner steak knife it might not fit the definition of a dangerous weapon, but as soon as a drunk picks it up and chases his wife through the house it certainly becomes one. So the potential is a big part of it and they'll consider whether-or-not it was needed on the job to perform the job.
Sorry for the long post but I think there's really more at stake in this decision than what we might think of at first glance.
i would carry. my last job tried that with me. i informed them that the state of florida seemed to think that i was competent enough and had the training to carry that they issued me a license to carry. ( as my hubby says... boy did they mess up). i carried and they knew. they never said anything except that if i pulled my gun and used it on the property that i would be fired. my response to that was i would rather be alive without a job than dead with one.
I would not sue to get a job back, I don't want to be where I'm not wanted.
I work in a hospital run by a corp that has a firm, "NO firearms inside this building" policy.
I know that, they know I know that, so if I violate that, I EXPECT to be fired. No problem.
No mention of what I can or cannot keep in my car, and I'll secure it there. If they should ever even think about searching my car, they WILL have an LEO with a warrant in hand, or some damned good probable cause. And I'm not going to provide them with the latter.
One of the first things I do at any new job is to make good friends with the security staff. (Followed by the cooks and house-keepers.) This has served me well.
I do agree that you have to think about one's family and how being fired would affect them. But you also have to think about how you being DEAD would affect them, as well.
The question was "How would YOU interpret this?" I answered that. Don't much care about the rest of it. Carrying on to different stages in a thread is useful, but after a while, we do get well away from the original question and tend to "but what-if" things to a point where the only answer is to give it up and turn into a .
None of us are actually going to do that, I hope!
Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.
The members of this forum may be a minority in that they accept responsibility for their actions and the consequences of their decisions. If you accept the potential consequences and feel they are outweighed by the potential for harm, make the appropriate decisiion. What I would do is not important, it is what decision (and consequences) you can live with.
I would carry very discreetly.
Bob McDuffee, co-host DogWatch Social Club Podcast
Thoughtful Conversation, Considered Opinion and a Touch of Insanity
"He who goes about unarmed in paradise, had better be sure that is where he is!" James Thurber
This prompted me to browse through the emp handbook. What about the phrase "Possessing dangerous or unauthorized materals in the workplace, such as explosives or firearms"? Whom are they referring to unauthorized? Any suggestions or takes on this?
I completely agree. I have a similar situation in that the private university I attend has a no guns on campus policy. They "reserve the right" to kick you out of school if caught. I live off and campus and pack there but dont know what to do about class, etc. Any ideas??
I concur with the above comments. A poorly written employee manual that was designed to tell employees "don't have a firearm on company property" but that isn't what is says. I doubt your employer would see it that way if the fact was discovered and would probably initiate disciplinary action. Their attitude would likely be that the intent of their policy was clear even if it is badly worded.
BTW, here in MO employers do the same thing and it would have no affect on employees with firearms in their vehicle in a company parking lot because our law allows individuals 21 years of age or older who lawfully posess a firearm to have it in their vehicle even at "prohibited or posted places"....even if they do not hace a CCW permit. It is not a criminal act.
An employee might be totally justified legally in having his or her firearm in their vehicle in their employers parking lot BUT still be subject to termination for violating a "term or condition of their employment". Two different issues...criminal law and employment law.