If one shot is justified, are more....

This is a discussion on If one shot is justified, are more.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Anything worth shooting ONCE is worth shooting TWICE. Or to put it in verse: Two to the chest and one to the head makes SURE...they're ...

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Thread: If one shot is justified, are more....

  1. #16
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    Anything worth shooting ONCE is worth shooting TWICE. Or to put it in verse: Two to the chest and one to the head makes SURE...they're dead.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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  3. #17
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    makes SURE...they're dead.
    Jim - being maybe a tad pedantic - I'll change that to - "makes SURE...they're stopped."

    Just thinking - the two words we not really want to be saying are ''kill'' and ''dead''!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  4. #18
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    I agree with the general consensus so far - shoot until the threat is stopped. If you are justified to fire, then you are justified to stop the threat. But this is where training comes into play. You need to be able to know that the threat has stopped and then stop shooting.

  5. #19
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    I have trained myself to fire two shots and evaluate the target. If he is still on his feet (or not) and still a threat I'll shoot him again.

    Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice, ammo is cheap, life isn't.

    As SSKC stated shoot until there is no longer a threat. One round or twenty. When I no longer percieve him to be a threat then I'll stop shooting and call 911.

    I'll use a few Clint Smith teachings here.

    "People ask, ‘What do you do if the guy’s on drugs?’ Shoot ‘em! ‘But what if it doesn’t work?’ Shoot ‘em some more!"

    "Make (your attacker) advance through a wall of bullets. I may get killed with my own gun, bet he’s gonna have to beat me to death with it, ‘cause it’s going to be empty."
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    First, always remember you are the good guy and trained to deploy your weapon based on your training. So, having said that if a CCW pulls his weapon and feels that it is necessary to squeeze, then do until the threat is stopped. I will worry about lawyers after the fact, your life is more important.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  7. #21
    Member Array Dingle1911's Avatar
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    I agree with most everything so far. I think that in the stress of an attack we will not be able to perceive the exact number of shots. I think this is where training becomes very important. You should shoot until the treat is stopped. One or two shots will probably not be enough.

    At the moment my pocket gun is a .22 LR derringer, and I really don't think it is enough. Anyone want to sell me an R9 at a really good price?

  8. #22
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    Thumbs down Pc?

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Jim - being maybe a tad pedantic - I'll change that to - "makes SURE...they're stopped."

    Just thinking - the two words we not really want to be saying are ''kill'' and ''dead''!
    Chris, don't go PC on me now! It's called Use of DEADLY FORCE for a reason. It's a rhyme I learned in the infantry. If it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot. Thanks to the new castle doctrine law in this state, I won't have legal sharks circling me for a lawsuit in the event of a "good self defense shooting." Recall if you will, Euc's tagline.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #23
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    Cool .22 in the hand is better than 45 at home....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dingle1911
    At the moment my pocket gun is a .22 LR derringer, and I really don't think it is enough. Anyone want to sell me an R9 at a really good price?
    Actually, I would think that a good stackbarrel derringer by American Derringer or Bond Arms in anything from 22WMR up to the 410 is fine. I myslef have a NAA mini-revolver in 22LR. I know that if I have to use it in an extreme situation, it's going to have to be a contact shot. I stoke it with 22 tracers and I know that I'm not going to be able to produce it and yell FREEZE! without the BG laughing hisself to death. So if I have to go to this little teeeeny piece it's going to be get close; jam it in the eye and pull the trigger.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #24
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    Chris, don't go PC on me now!
    Haha - that was said with my lawyer, Mr Murphy - lookin' over my shoulder
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array '75scout's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to sound morbid but if I ever feel the need to draw my gun it would be because my life is in danger and I will not only intend to end that threat but to end the attackers life. Otherwise he/she could easily sue me and flip the situation onto me being the BG. Plus if you could end the confrontation in 1 shot, the DA might believe it could have been ended without any shots fired.

  12. #26
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    Scout,
    I wouldn't say you intend to end the life of the attacker. Just end the threat, if the BG dies, so be it.
    Me, I'll keep firing until the threat(s) stop being threats. If I need to reload, I will. what ever it takes to keep my loved one safe is what I'll do. I've told her that, and I mean it.
    Dave

    “The highest obligation and privilege of citizenship is that of bearing arms”. General George Patton—US Army

    Vis et Veneratio

    "So this is how democracy dies: to thunderous applause." Actress Natalie Portman as Padme in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

  13. #27
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    I believe we're missing the point. I think we're all in agreement that we shoot til the threat isn't a threat. My question deals with are we pre-conditioning ourselves to "over-shoot".

    For example, I go to the range, set my mind set to the "shoot 'til he's down", "shoot 'til he's not in my sights", "shoot to slide lock" or a very poorly defined, "shoot until he isn't a threat".

    So I shoot away, sometimes five, sometimes six or seven shots. I have to be sure the training effect "sets" so that in a gunfight I won't stop shooting too quickly.

    Then the dreaded event occurs and my training kicks in - I fire five shots and the threat is still there - training - failure drill - one to the head and he goes down. A witness says, why'd you keep shooting him, he dropped his gun as soon as you shot him!

    My point is if we revert to training in stressful situations and our training is on paper targets and we fire multiple shots in training and in training we have no stop mechanism to identify when the threat is over, why do we think we'll recognize the transition from threat to non-threat in a real situation? All we've trained for is multiple shots, shoot'em til they're down, shoot to slide lock. What if the threat is over before any of that criteria is met?

  14. #28
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    This is OT but reminds me of conversation I had with a lawyer friend of mine in a country south of here. From what I understand most latin countries have some sort of variation on this law. She is a lawyer who used to do Criminal Law and was about to change legal fields and work for a Resort/Casino. She had managed, Lord knows how difficult it is down there, to get a CCW and we got to talk about how to shoot a BG. I was going through the usual description of deliberate pairs, fast pairs, etc and we reached Failure Drill. I was floored when she said “I can’t do that. I’d go to jail.” I went wha-wha-what do you mean? She went on to explain that 3 shots on a BG are considered “Ensañamiento” which, loosely translated, means “with cruel and malicious intent.” I asked her “If I shoot the guy once, he does not drop, I shoot him again and he does not drop and if I shoot him again and he still doesn’t go down, I go to jail? She responded that no, I’d go to jail after shooting the second shot if the lawyer is not very good. Of course I couldn’t stomach that and I retorted “So what do I do? Shoot him once and give him a freebie at my arse?” “Yes”, she answered because you have to meet force with equal force according to the law. She went on to explain that she had a client who shoot and killed a BG in self-defense with a fast pair and the DA drag him to jail for that “Ensañamiento” law. She managed to convince the judge that her client’s second shot was caused not by deliberation but by nervousness and the guy was set free after spending time behind bars and lots of money. She said that putting 3 shots on the BG, there is no way you can get away with the excuse of being nervous and having some tick or something that made you shoot three times so a Failure Drill is illegal. Then it dawn on me, what if the guy comes at me with a knife? She smiled and said, “You better let yourself be cut. According to the law, the gun being more harmful than the knife, you would be going straight to jail for Homicide if you kill him before he cuts you.”
    God Bless The USA!
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    God Bless The USA!
    Whoa! Amen Miggy!

  16. #30
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    First off let me say that I am not a lawyer and I have never formally studied law, but if someone pulls a knife on me I am going to fear for my life. Reference the pictures in the "beware the blade" thread. A knife is a nasty weapon. I think that I would fire as many times as I have to to stop the BG from coming at me with the knife. But I am not a lawyer, and I will worry about the outcome of a legal trial after the attack and when I am alive.

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