If one shot is justified, are more....

This is a discussion on If one shot is justified, are more.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I need to append this but opted to post instead of edit. One thing that is important is that the training effect is very real. ...

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Thread: If one shot is justified, are more....

  1. #31
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    I need to append this but opted to post instead of edit. One thing that is important is that the training effect is very real.

    How many recall the story of the officers that were trained to pick up their brass as soon as they ejected it from their revolvers? Remember there were some that reverted to that training in a gunfight and they were actually found dead or wounded with cases in their pockets where they attempted a reload in a gunfight and stopped to pick up the brass just like in training!

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  3. #32
    Member Array mchasal's Avatar
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    I've heard that too Tangle. I've also heard a story, don't know if it's true, about an officer who would practice disarming techniques with his partner. He would snatch the gun, then hand it back to his partner. He trained on this often, and got quite good at it. Of course, you all see what's coming next. He was faced by a BG with a gun and since he trained so well, he easily disarmed the subject.......and handed the gun back to him.

    Mike
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by '75scout
    I'm not trying to sound morbid but if I ever feel the need to draw my gun it would be because my life is in danger and I will not only intend to end that threat but to end the attackers life. Otherwise he/she could easily sue me and flip the situation onto me being the BG. Plus if you could end the confrontation in 1 shot, the DA might believe it could have been ended without any shots fired.
    If your life is endangered and you shoot to stop the threat, I'm with you. If he dies from his wounds, it is unfortunate but he is the one who made the decision to attack. However, if you continue to shoot after the attack stops, in order to end the attacker's life, that is murder in my book. Fear of being sued is NOT justification for taking a life.

    I also fail to see how shooting a person more than once is going to make you look better in a court of law, when the "confrontation," as you put it, ended after one shot.

    Not to be harsh, but I think you need to put some serious thought into this. Read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. Do some more study on use of force. Take a CCW course, whether one is required in your area or not. Make sure you are up to speed on the legalities of deadly force. If you are ever attacked, the behavior you mentioned could put you in prison.

    SSKC

  5. #34
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    He was faced by a BG with a gun and since he trained so well, he easily disarmed the subject.......and handed the gun back to him.


  6. #35
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    Question How about THIS

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Jim - being maybe a tad pedantic - I'll change that to - "makes SURE...they're stopped."

    Just thinking - the two words we not really want to be saying are ''kill'' and ''dead''!
    Two to the chest and one to the head....we'd prefer him alive...but we'll take him dead!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #36
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    Exclamation Never bring a knife to a gunfight!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dingle1911
    First off let me say that I am not a lawyer and I have never formally studied law, but if someone pulls a knife on me I am going to fear for my life. Reference the pictures in the "beware the blade" thread. A knife is a nasty weapon. I think that I would fire as many times as I have to to stop the BG from coming at me with the knife. But I am not a lawyer, and I will worry about the outcome of a legal trial after the attack and when I am alive.
    First of all, remember that if somebody pulls a knife on you and they're standing 21 feet or closer to your body and you DON'T aready have a gun in your hand, if you attempt to draw, you will likely die. That's the oft mentioned 21 foot rule. It means that within 21 feet an attacker can reach you and stab at least twice in 1.5 seconds.

    Can you draw that fast and be accurate? "EYEBALL" accurate? Every time? Even police officers who already have their guns in hand often have to retreat and fire AND move out of the way as the attacker advances with his knife.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #37
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    Ex,
    The Tueller drill, or the 21 foot rule drill, is when the guy with the knife intiates the attack while the officer's gun is holstered. Part of the 1.5 secs is the officer's reaction time to the threat.

    Of course the point of the drill is that if you're holstered and the BG initiates the attack, he'll be there before, or at least by the time you can draw and shoot him. I'm pretty sure it's a bit different if the officer initiates the confrontation by going for his gun. The officer becomes the initiator and reaction time works against the BG.

    And yep, either way, the GG needs to move or move and shoot as the situation calls for.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Chris, don't go PC on me now! It's called Use of DEADLY FORCE for a reason. It's a rhyme I learned in the infantry. If it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot. Thanks to the new castle doctrine law in this state, I won't have legal sharks circling me for a lawsuit in the event of a "good self defense shooting." Recall if you will, Euc's tagline.
    I think the point is if you are in court and they ask you why you shot him 14 times you better be saying that you continued to fire until he stopped being a threat. If you answer, "because he wasn't dead yet", you are probably going to wind up on the short end of the stick. And once you say it, it can't be taken back. I will shoot until the treat is stopped. If he happens to be dead, so be it....
    Bumper
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    ...My point is if we revert to training in stressful situations and our training is on paper targets and we fire multiple shots in training and in training we have no stop mechanism to identify when the threat is over, why do we think we'll recognize the transition from threat to non-threat in a real situation? All we've trained for is multiple shots, shoot'em til they're down, shoot to slide lock. What if the threat is over before any of that criteria is met?
    If our training is on static paper targets, and we fire multiple shots in training, and in training we have no means of telling when the threat stops, then we won't be able to recognize the transition in a real life situation. That's why the quality of training is at least as important as the quantity. Good force-on-force training is an eye-opening experience.
    - Tom
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  11. #40
    VIP Member Array Nick's Avatar
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    Regarding "If one shot is justified, are more..."

    As a retired prosecutor, I'd say that in the courtroom what they'll be looking at is whether you stopped shooting when the threat evaporated. The right to use deadly force ends when the threat ends.
    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them."
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  12. #41
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    Why wait for FoF or live-fire training? Even dry-fire? Go over different situations in your mind when you're just hanging out watching tv. Come up with scenarios in your mind and work through them. Look at different ways to counter a threat and use different scenarios to react to. Shoot once to stop the threat. Shoot multiple times to stop. Have the threat stop at the draw. Go for cover. Move and shoot. You can run an endless number of "scenarios" in your head during the commercials of your favorite tv programs.

    The more input your mind has the better it will be able to cope if something ever does happen. Your brain does not really know the difference between reality and non-reality. Use that to your advantage. If you have "seen" the situation in your mind multiple times it gives you a decided advantage if a real-life situation developes. "Shoot to stop" in every way you can imagine. If you have already "seen" the BG react a dozen times, you'll have a better learned reaction to it on the street.
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  13. #42
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    Nick - one thing that does concern me - and I think I had a thread running on similar thing - is the actual instant at which we can (reliably) know the threat is dealt with. Seems that could be quite a problem.

    I say that only because I can envisage a situation where the BG has gone down - but is still far from stopped and is still capable of generating incoming!

    What then if a witness concentrates on the ''well the bad guy was on the ground and was still being shot'' - instead of ''well, he was still shooting''!

    I can certainly see some conclusions to a fight which could be less that clear cut on analysis - depending which viewpoint was taken!.
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  14. #43
    Senior Member Array '75scout's Avatar
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    I'm not saying to continue to shoot an unarmed man as he lies on the ground. I'm simply saying that just because someone seems to be out of the fight does not mean that they truely are. Also I have read "In the Gravest Extreme", it is a very good book. And I plan on taking a CHL class as soon as I can, additional classes will follow. Massad Ayoob advocates shooting a full magazine into whoever has put you in a situation where you must use lethal force. He also stated that if you feel the need to use all of the ammunition in you firearm it will further the fact that your life was in danger, while one shot could make a shhoting seem somewhat unjustified. I would provide a quote but I let someone borrow the book before they started to carry.

    My statment that I would intent to take a life was inappropriate and I withdraw it. That is not how I meant to word it. I simply meant I wouldn't feel in the wrong for taking someones life that threatened mine or my loved ones. Also I would not shoot to wound but shoot to kill, another tactic advocated by Massad Ayoob. That is the quickest way to end the threat and is the most likely tactic to keep me and more importanly my loved ones alive and well.

    '75scout

  15. #44
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    '75scout,

    I felt from the way your previous post was worded that you had some serious misunderstandings about how this deadly force issue works. I'm very glad that such is not the case.

    The remark attributed to Ayoob that a one-shot stop might appear to be an unnecessary shooting is not one that I recall - I will dig out my copy and refresh my admittedly marginal memory. That said, if shooting an attacker one time puts the defensive citizen at legal risk (all other things being equal) I wonder why we have this obsession with the elusive one-shot stop.

    I am 100% in agreement with you that "shoot to wound" is not an appropriate action. If we are not in immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm, shooting at all is unjustified. Besides, an extremity is a smaller target than a torso, increasing the chance of a bullet missing its target and going elsewhere.

    It is generally accepted that if shooting is justified, we shoot to "stop," not to kill. Whether or not the BG dies is irrelevant, for our purposes. What IS important that the attack ceases.

    Thank you for the clarification.

    SSKC

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array '75scout's Avatar
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    I'm glad we are on the same page (or atleast close). I don't want anyone to think I desire to kill anyone. Only to protect my family and myself. People that say they would gladly use a gun to kill someone else and say some grand story about how they would proceed with this act give the rest of us gun owners/enthusiasts a bad name.

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