If one shot is justified, are more....

This is a discussion on If one shot is justified, are more.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by P95Carry Nick - one thing that does concern me - and I think I had a thread running on similar thing - ...

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Thread: If one shot is justified, are more....

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Nick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Nick - one thing that does concern me - and I think I had a thread running on similar thing - is the actual instant at which we can (reliably) know the threat is dealt with. Seems that could be quite a problem.

    I say that only because I can envisage a situation where the BG has gone down - but is still far from stopped and is still capable of generating incoming!

    What then if a witness concentrates on the ''well the bad guy was on the ground and was still being shot'' - instead of ''well, he was still shooting''!

    I can certainly see some conclusions to a fight which could be less that clear cut on analysis - depending which viewpoint was taken!.
    After 25 years doing criminal law, one of the moments that stands out is when a police officer friend of mine took me aside and reminded me that we lawyers worked in a "sterile environment" compared to "the street". I'll never forget that.

    So P95Carry/Chris, you are absolutely right when you say: "the actual instant at which we can (reliably) know the threat is dealt with" can be the problem.

    When faced with a life or death situation, we can only react as best we can to stop the threat. Additionally, the "fight or flight" response may make for "unusual" behavior on our part.

    Just try to survive, then remember some lawyers may be dissecting everything from that "sterile environment". Survival as we here know, must come first.

    - Nick
    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them."
    George Mason


    "Gun control is a job-safety program for criminals."
    John R. Lott

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  3. #47
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    a police officer friend of mine took me aside and reminded me that we lawyers worked in a "sterile environment" compared to "the street".
    Thx for your comments Nick - I do wonder how much that cop's statement might apply!!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  4. #48
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    One more opinion! (If you can stand it.)

    At the range, I'll fire a number of shots more-or-less "slow fire." I also practice double and triple taps. I usually throw in a few 5 and 6 shot rapid-fire strings, occasionally rapid-fire to slide-lock, concentrating on keep the rounds "in the zone."

    The notion of intentionally firing to slide-lock sounds like a good way to find yourself virtually "empty-handed" when BG #2 materializes. With Mr. Murphy constantly in close proximity, I'd avoid that one.

    Training to fire a specific number of rounds, assess, and "repeat as needed," isn't the way I choose to go either. I don't want any training-induced pause to allow a BG the opportunity to achieve his goal.

    I hope I'm able, should I be forced to put practice to the test, to remain fluid in what is a fluid situation.

    How things may or may not appear in court is something I worry about, after the smoke clears. I cannot let such thoughts interfere with my survival.

    Another way of putting it is, don't get too attached to any dogma.

    (My Karma ran over my Dogma! )

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    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

  5. #49
    New Member Array 3584ELK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre
    My CCW instructor advised us that you shoot until the threat is neutralized or your gun is empty, whichever comes first. This means that if you shoot a BG, and he goes down, you can't walk over and put a couple in his head to "be sure".

    The recent incident where the BG was on top of the cop and had already taken 5 to the torso without giving up, tells me that my instructor's advice was sound.
    I agree, as does my cop buddy who served in W. TX in the '70's. One more .45ACP hole doesn't change intent on the part of the shooter. According to him, he was called to serve as a witness in a similar case, and he testified that he was trained to empty his gun into the suspect up to the point where the bad guy dies.
    An Honest Man Keeps His Horse Saddled

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSKC
    Depends. You are justified in shooting until the attack stops. So...if you present your weapon and the bad guy says "Oh sh**!!" and beats feet, you are justified in firing zero shots. (This fits my ideal definition of defensive use of a weapon.) If, on the other hand, the attack does not cease, you can keep shooting until it does - one, three, seventeen, whatever it takes. But, you MUST CEASE FIRE as soon as you perceive that there is no longer a threat.

    Usual disclaimers for the above: I'm not a lawyer, etc., etc.

    SSKC
    That pretty much say's it all. You are justified in stopping the threat, but once the threat has ceased, you are required to stop as well. In the case of the BG who turns and runs out your door when he see's you're armed, you must stop firing when he turns and leaves. If you continue (you go to the door and shoot him as he's running across your front yard) and kill/injure him after the threat to you has passed, you will be held responsible and, probably, arrested for manslaughter or attempted murder. You might run into a grey area if the BG has already comitted a violent act like shooting at you, since you could say you thought he was only retreating to a safer spot to fire again, but that's something you'd have to decide at the time.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  7. #51
    New Member Array tankkiller275's Avatar
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    Hey all.

    First, let me say that I did not read every post to this thread, but many that I did stood out. I'll start with my opinion regarding the primary question: "If one shot is justified, are more...?"

    It is not a question of the number of rounds (or shots) are justifed, but rather that the use of lethal force is justified, period. If you want to answer the question anyway, of course more rounds are justified if one is. All formal, legitimate training in the use of firearms instructs a minimum of a double tap to center mass, with quick assessment and possible follow on shots.

    Second, Deadly or Lethal force does not mean kill. It is a term used to describe the use of a weapon or ability that may lead to the death of an individual, hopefully a BG. It would be ill advised to approach a BG to, "finish him off," on a legal and a tactical basis. The legal aspect should be easy to see, as murder is self evident. On a tacitial basis, approaching the BG places the good guy in danger. The time should be utilized seeking cover and safety, and maintaining a 360 degree defensive posture.

    Third, Practice on the range should not engrain a paper target approach to defense, but rather the rote use of the firearm and tactics/skills/equipment necessary to survive a confrontation. The training and practice should awareness, recognition of the threat, initiation of the attack/defense, aggressiveness/surprise, use of/seeking of cover, and disengagement. Unfortunately, many ranges available to the public do not allow shooting and moving on the line. Remember that during a high stress situation, such as "fight or flight" encounters, tunnel vision occurs, fine motor skills are degraded if not lost, and cognitive function is degraded as well. The military doesn't teach shooting and reaction drills over and over and over just to bore privates. It is done to engrain the actions as second nature for when the "**** hits the fan."

    Unfortunately, many in the justice system seek personal advancement or political activism over Justice and the public Wellfare. As such, it is the duty and responsibility of every Citizen to know the laws of the municipality, county, state, and country regarding the use of lethal force and such. It may also be beneficial to know some important case law, and also what law enforcement approaches and policy are to circumstances before, during, and after deadly force encounters have occurred.

    Great responsibilty befalls anyone who decides to exercise his/her right to self preservation and defense by obtaining a CCW and carrying a firearm. I, like many in this forum, hope never to have to exercise this right to fruition. If it does occur, it will not be to kill, but rather to survive. It is as simple as that!
    Rangers Lead the Way!

    Rules of a Gun Fight #23: "Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."

  8. #52
    New Member Array tankkiller275's Avatar
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    rechilders wrote:
    That pretty much say's it all. You are justified in stopping the threat, but once the threat has ceased, you are required to stop as well. In the case of the BG who turns and runs out your door when he see's you're armed, you must stop firing when he turns and leaves. If you continue (you go to the door and shoot him as he's running across your front yard) and kill/injure him after the threat to you has passed, you will be held responsible and, probably, arrested for manslaughter or attempted murder. You might run into a grey area if the BG has already comitted a violent act like shooting at you, since you could say you thought he was only retreating to a safer spot to fire again, but that's something you'd have to decide at the time.
    It is not so simple. I would agree in large extent to the notion that if the threat to one's self is determined to have passed, an end to the hostilities on the part of the good guy should cease. However, circumstances do arise where, although the immediate threat to the good guy is over, there still exists a threat to others. I cannot explain it fully enough on my own, but if the BG is running away, but still poses a threat to others, continued use of lethal force may still be justified. Remember, use of Lethal Force is not exclusive to the individual and his/her family, but extends to third parties as well, even strangers. Enforcement of the law is not exclusive to local, county, and state police. Authority is granted to them, but the responsibility is inate in all of us Citizens.

    Not a plug, but a good source of info is found at Force Science News: http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home/index.htm

    RLTW!

    Rob
    Rangers Lead the Way!

    Rules of a Gun Fight #23: "Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."

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