TX Posting With Wrong Law Citation

This is a discussion on TX Posting With Wrong Law Citation within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I went to a doctor's office today and saw the no-guns posting outside the building entrance. I also noticed that the Texas code cited was ...

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Thread: TX Posting With Wrong Law Citation

  1. #1
    Member Array AdoptedTexan's Avatar
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    TX Posting With Wrong Law Citation

    I went to a doctor's office today and saw the no-guns posting outside the building entrance. I also noticed that the Texas code cited was not 30.06 (kinda funny, I know), but 30.05, which is not the correct legal citation I'm pretty sure. Has anyone in Texas come across this before? Could this have been an old sign (I took my CHL training this past January)?

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Sounds like somebody has been editing a sign they don't like to make it void. Kinda funny. I don't think they had 30.06 type signs before they had 30.06 but I'm not a Texan (although granted amnesty by marriage) and can't say for sure about 30.05.
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    Member Array MaleNursePX4's Avatar
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    Hmm, seems to be an old trespassing sign more than a concealed carry sign. What did it say besides 30.05??


    Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if he enters or remains on property or in a building of another without effective consent and he:
    (1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
    (2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
    (b) For purposes of this section:
    (1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.
    (2) "Notice" means:
    (A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
    (B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;
    (C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;
    (D) [inserted 9/1/97] the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are:
    (i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
    (ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and
    (iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than:
    (a) 100 feet apart on forest land; or
    (b) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or
    (E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry.
    (3) "Shelter center" has the meaning assigned by Section 51.002(1), Human Resources Code.
    (4) [added 9/1/97] "Forest land" means land on which the trees are potentially valuable for timber products.
    (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor at the time of the offense was a fire fighter or emergency medical services personnel, as that term is defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty under exigent circumstances.
    (d) An offense under this section is a Class B misdemeanor unless it is committed in a habitation or a shelter center or unless the actor carries a deadly weapon on or about his person during the commission of the offense, in which event it is a Class A misdemeanor.
    (e) [added 9/1/97] A person does not have or receive notice under Subsection (b)(2)(D) unless a sign is placed at each entrance for vehicles to the property that gives notice that the presence of purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property indicates that entry is forbidden. The sign required under this subsection must be not less than two feet by three feet in size with block letters at least two inches in height. This subsection expires September 1, 1998.
    1997 Act adding (e) provided in Sec. 3(b): In the prosecution of an offense in which it is alleged that the defendant had or received notice as described by Section 30.05(e), Penal Code, as added by this Act, Section 30.05(e) is continued in effect after September 1, 1998, but only if every element of the alleged offense occurred before September 1, 1998.


    And then this seems to be the new 30.05........I can't process the whole thing this early in the morning but it sounds like its saying if you are carrying and commit a burglary or trespass that it is a crime....hm.......



    CHAPTER 30. BURGLARY AND CRIMINAL TRESPASS

    30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS.
    (a) A person commits an offense if he enters or remains on or in property, including an aircraft or other vehicle, of another without effective consent or he enters or remains in a building of another without effective consent and he:
    (1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
    (2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
    (b) For purposes of this section:
    (1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.
    (2) "Notice" means:
    (A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
    (B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;
    (C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;
    (D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are:
    (i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
    (ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and
    (iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than:
    (a) 100 feet apart on forest land; or
    (b) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or
    (E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry.
    (3) "Shelter center" has the meaning assigned by Section 51.002, Human Resources Code.
    (4) "Forest land" means land on which the trees are potentially valuable for timber products.
    (5) "Agricultural land" has the meaning assigned by Section 75.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code.
    (6) "Superfund site" means a facility that:
    (A) is on the National Priorities List established under Section 105 of the federal Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980 (42
    U.S.C. Section 9605); or
    (B) is listed on the state registry established under Section 361.181, Health and Safety Code.
    (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor at the time of the offense was a fire fighter or emergency medical services personnel, as that term is defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty under exigent circumstances.
    (d) An offense under Subsection (e) is a Class C misdemeanor unless it is committed in a habitation or unless the actor carries a deadly weapon on or about the actor's person during the commission of the offense, in which event it is a Class A misdemeanor. An offense under Subsection (a) is a Class B misdemeanor, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if:
    (1) the offense is committed:
    (A) in a habitation or a shelter center; or
    (B) on a Superfund site; or
    (2) the actor carries a deadly weapon on or about his person during the commission of the offense.
    (e) A person commits an offense if without express consent or if without authorization provided by any law, whether in writing or other form, the person:
    (1) enters or remains on agricultural land of another;
    (2) is on the agricultural land and within 100 feet of the boundary of the land when apprehended; and
    (3) had notice that the entry was forbidden or received notice to depart but failed to do so.
    (f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
    (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
    (2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.
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  5. #4
    Member Array AdoptedTexan's Avatar
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    Maybe a bit confusing...

    The citation appeared next to the universal no-gun symbol of a handgun in the middle of a circle with a slash through it. The full law was not cited, and there was no reference to 30.06. Still, I'm going to have to puzzle over this one unless someone can give a clear explanation. It seems to be saying that carrying a handgun in the building constitutes criminal trespass, but the part MaleNursePX4 highlighted seems to create a defense if you have a concealed carry permit, assuming that reference goes where I think it goes. Is this effectively saying you can't carry here unless you have a CHL, and to do so would be criminal trespass?

  6. #5
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    Ok, I Think the Prohibition is Covered Here

    I think I get it now.

    This link lists the law:

    Texas Penal Code - Section 46.035. Unlawful Carrying Of Handgun By License Holder - Texas Attorney Resources - Texas Laws

    The way I read it, and I'm no lawyer, is that this is one of the specific exclusions, places where a CHL permit does not allow you to carry a concealed handgun.

  7. #6
    Member Array jamullinstx's Avatar
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    Read it again

    Read item 46.035i. It specifically negates items b4, b5, b6 and c for CHL holders, unless the sites covered by those items are posted in accordance with 30.06. In Texas, 30.06 requirements are very specific, and a posting that doesn't follow the sign specifications, exactly, is invalid.

    If the OP enters the site, then my interpretation is that nothing bad will happen if his arm remains concealed. However, if they truly want to exclude CHL holders from carrying on the site, then if he is examined and the firearm seen, and a person with the authority of the owner (not necessarily the owner) gives him verbal notice to leave, he commits a trespass if he refuses. The Texas penal code allows verbal notice with no specific wording requirements, but written notice must conform exactly to 30.06.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdoptedTexan View Post
    I think I get it now.

    This link lists the law:

    Texas Penal Code - Section 46.035. Unlawful Carrying Of Handgun By License Holder - Texas Attorney Resources - Texas Laws

    The way I read it, and I'm no lawyer, is that this is one of the specific exclusions, places where a CHL permit does not allow you to carry a concealed handgun.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    I'm not from Texas and don't really know Tx law, but, from the way I read it, 30.06 requires notice that CHL's are not permitted before you can be a trespasser. That notice can be a sign with specific wording OR oral (or something else?).

    30.05 is a statute which says that a sign or symbols constitute notice of trespass or unwanted conduct equating to trespass.

    So, the question becomes: Is a 30.05 sign saying gun carriers are trespassers sufficient legal notice to CHL licensees notwithstanding the language requirements in 30.06? If so, then ignoring the sign makes you a trespasser and you can be cited even if the sign doesn't have the 30.06 verbage.

    For my money, I'd vote against being a test case and find a new doctor. I also believe that there is a "wall of shame" site somewhere which will gladly add the doctors name. You can then write a nice letter to the doc telling him about it and why.

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Nope, if the hospital doesn't post the correct 30.06 signage it is not a case of trespass unless your told that you need to leave and then hang around afterwards.

    The laws in Texas are really very clear on this. The 30.05 law has nothing to do with whether or not a CHL holder can go past a gun buster sign or not.

    The following section says just that.

    f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
    (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
    (2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

    So if you have your license on you and the gun your carrying meets the catagory that your license states you are not trespassing.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    some places put up their own version of signs that they think are the law, I've seen several of these type of signs on convenient stores, etc, some cite 30.05 as a reference, others cite a law that was put out of the penal code over 10 years ago and make me laugh

    30.05 has no direct effect on a CHL for the specific purpose of keeping a CHL out/off of property
    30.05 is the "regular" tresspass (marked property, posted, or verbally telling someone to get off property and they don't leave)
    30.05 cannot be used to prosecute someone for trespass based solely on the fact they have a CHL and are carrying; thats why the 30.06 law was crafted
    you are good to carry in any location that does not post the EXACT required signage under 30.06
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    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    The practical difference, from a gun-toter's perspective, is that 30.05 is in effect on all private property all the time, in that if the owner or person charge wants you to leave, and you fail to do so, you are trespassing. The person in charge can eject you from the premises himself, assign another to do so, or call the police to remove you. If the police tell you to leave, and you fail to do so, and I mean do so IMMEDIATELY, you may be arrested for criminal trespassing.

    If a 30.06 sign is posted, it applies specifically to those carrying under the provisions of a CHL. If a CHL holder, who is carrying, was given adequate notice, and entered the applicable portion of the premises while carrying a concealed handgun, he is subject to arrest, and being charged under section 30.06. No further warning by the property's owner/custodian, nor police, is necessary.

    So, if there is a sign that does not comply with 30.06, and nobody finds out that a CHL holder is carrying, it is a case of no harm, no foul.

    Some meddlesome biddies, who are CHL holders, feel compelled to advise property owners of the errors of their ways. I simply cannot understand how this can be thought to help the cause of armed self-defense.

    I am not a lawyer, so this is NOT legal advice. I do wear a Texas peace officer badge, for a living.

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    Okay, Thanks for Your Combined Clarifications

    Thanks to one and all who were more adroit at reading the law than I was. I THOUGHT I remembered in class that the 30.06 had to be there or you were legal, except for those places specifically excluded under the law. I'm thinking Trinity Medical Center Plaza complex (doctors offices) just doesn't know what it needs to post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdoptedTexan View Post
    Thanks to one and all who were more adroit at reading the law than I was. I THOUGHT I remembered in class that the 30.06 had to be there or you were legal, except for those places specifically excluded under the law. I'm thinking Trinity Medical Center Plaza complex (doctors offices) just doesn't know what it needs to post.
    Or maybe they know what they need to post, and only have the signs to make sheeple feel better. Either way, as pointed out above, the sign is not valid, and can be ignored by a person with a valid CHL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexster View Post
    So, if there is a sign that does not comply with 30.06, and nobody finds out that a CHL holder is carrying, it is a case of no harm, no foul.

    Some meddlesome biddies, who are CHL holders, feel compelled to advise property owners of the errors of their ways. I simply cannot understand how this can be thought to help the cause of armed self-defense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexster View Post
    I am not a lawyer, so this is NOT legal advice. I do wear a Texas peace officer badge, for a living.
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