Poll: Teacher's carrying - Page 4

Poll: Teacher's carrying

This is a discussion on Poll: Teacher's carrying within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As a high school teacher, I understand some of what wjh2657 is saying. I do however think there is no reason anyone other then the ...

View Poll Results: Should teachers be allowed to carry at school?

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  • Yes, anytime, anywhere

    313 89.68%
  • Yes, at college/university level only

    8 2.29%
  • Yes, at high school level or above

    15 4.30%
  • Yes, at jr high level or above (not elementary)

    9 2.58%
  • Yes, but only outside of school hours (no kids around)

    1 0.29%
  • NO. Too tricky. Teachers don't want the liability.

    3 0.86%
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Thread: Poll: Teacher's carrying

  1. #46
    Member Array Yamikaze's Avatar
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    As a high school teacher, I understand some of what wjh2657 is saying. I do however think there is no reason anyone other then the principal should know who is carrying. There is no way any students should know. I also have to say there are many teachers I would not want to have a gun. We had a shooting at our school about five years ago. There were several teachers who panicked. They didn't loose it totally, but I had to pull them aside and calm them down. I don't want that kind of person to have a gun. I certainly do not want a teacher carrying in fear, with no advanced training. There are lots of people out there carrying a gun because they are afraid. They carry it with little or no training at all. When I think of one of the ladies that was in my CPL training class, and the fact that she passed the class.... HOLLY CRAP! I don't want anyone like that with a gun around me.
    In my school we have about 100 teachers. Maybe 15 or 20 of them have what it takes to be armed in a school. I would trust them if they had extensive training, and constant re-training.

    Oh yeah, There are several small guns that can be carried with no chance of being detected. I could carry my NAA Pug in my shirt pocket and no one would even know.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    Read my post again. Who says the teacher is armed any given day? It could be 1 in 4 that are packing. Or 1 in 10. No one really knows.

    paul34 - You are reading way too much into this. Who said a teacher is being "forced" to carry a gun?

    Both of you are saying that no teacher at any time should have the option to pack even if they have passed all qualifications. No way never. Sorry, I don't agree. Using straw-man arguments to prove your points doesn't convince me. How about some real facts?

    Data for facts would mean after we have 10,000 students (a very small sample for statistical analysis btw) killed by teachers, how many were trying to seize gun, how many aggravated teacher, how many were mentally disturbed? By that time all of us would have lost our guns because Mommas of America would have seen to it that NOBODY could carry a gun. I'm sorry but this is one of those issues that has to delve into student behavior vs teacher behavior. To wait for "facts" (data) would be a moot argument, we would have suffered from repercussions long before sufficient "data" was collected. Remember awareness and Condition Yellow? Do you wait for the facts on how many people are being shot before you begin to act on a threat?


    I don't mean this as a flame, but as a very strong observation from being in the workplace for many years. I have also discussed this with fellow teachers, both active and retired. In my discussions I have noted that younger, inexperienced teachers are those supporting armed staff. Older, more experienced teachers tend to vote against it due to experience with teenagers.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    "Read my post again. Who says the teacher is armed any given day? It could be 1 in 4 that are packing. Or 1 in 10. No one really knows.

    paul34 - You are reading way too much into this. Who said a teacher is being "forced" to carry a gun?"

    Reply:

    1. State Laws do not permit students to be armed.

    2. Most schools have some method of ascertaining whether students can hide weapon: no backpacks in classrooms, no coats in classrooms, etc.

    3. Students are much younger and immature than teachers.

    Taking the above , knowing that it is still possible for a student to sneak in a firearm or knife:

    Scenario 1: Student is not armed, but is physically aggressive. "Teacher knew he wasn't armed" (Prosecution argument)All three of above will convince jury (of parents, (no way you can avoid that) that teacher is guilty of murder not SD.

    Scenario 2: Student is armed. Fellow students will most likely testify that teacher drew first or will hide weapon. (they draw in ranks.)Honest students will have to face later peer repercussions if they say otherwise. Again all three of above will prevail.

    Since some states have voted to allow guns in classroom for teachers we will probably collect some "data" over the next decade. I hope I'm wrong but I think we are going to have some real misery with this action. If it does go down wrong there will be no going back, be happy with your pump shotgun and bolt action rifle to be removed from home for range or hunting only, because that will most likely be all you are allowed to have. You start shooting people's kids and there is no limit to their anger and revenge.

    2d A says "arms", it doesn't specify which kind (open to court interpretation).
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  4. #49
    Member Array Yamikaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post

    I don't mean this as a flame, but as a very strong observation from being in the workplace for many years. I have also discussed this with fellow teachers, both active and retired. In my discussions I have noted that younger, inexperienced teachers are those supporting armed staff. Older, more experienced teachers tend to vote against it due to experience with teenagers.

    Not a younger teacher. 14 years in the classroom, always been able to control my students through mutual respect.

    "Most in the room will support another student not the teacher."

    Is that really what you believe. Is that what you walked away with when you retired. I am very sorry your many years of experience left you with this sad view of teenagers. I have students stick up for me all the time. I have respect for and from my students, and often win respect from the hardened students I have had over the years. A good teacher can defuse a defiant student long before it comes to blows. Otherwise we would be fighting our students daily gun or no gun.

  5. #50
    Member Array dylistn's Avatar
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    required

    All schools should require 10% of the staff to be trained and carry. Schools should pay for the training, range time and practice ammo. But most schools would be able to get 10% who will pay for their own.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Dal1Celt's Avatar
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    I voted "yes anytime anywhere" BUT I think that they should have to get training and shoot regularly.
    "Without fear there can be no Courage!"

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamikaze View Post
    Not a younger teacher. 14 years in the classroom, always been able to control my students through mutual respect.

    "Most in the room will support another student not the teacher."

    Is that really what you believe. Is that what you walked away with when you retired. I am very sorry your many years of experience left you with this sad view of teenagers. I have students stick up for me all the time. I have respect for and from my students, and often win respect from the hardened students I have had over the years. A good teacher can defuse a defiant student long before it comes to blows. Otherwise we would be fighting our students daily gun or no gun.

    I think in a round about way, from different viewpoints, we agree. I don't believe gun is neccessary, that good teacher skills are the key to discipline. I just feel that weapon is just one more challenge for teenager against adult confrontation. I had the students you threw out of the classroom (or somebody else did) and I had 15-20 in the room at the same time. I'll stand by my observations. I didn't leave bitter and like I said, I was never attacked. Good lessons and a wry sense of humor will control even the worst of students. But no challenges!
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  8. #53
    Member Array Bacon's Avatar
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    The teachers here obviously know much more about the situation than I would. So I give you guys all the credit in the world. Thank you for responding so the rest of us can be more aware of your situation.
    NRA Life Member

  9. #54
    Member Array Yamikaze's Avatar
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    I doubt any teacher is going to need a gun because of an individual acting out in class. It will be because some outside force has put the school on lock-down. When the school is on lock-down is when I want to have a gun so I can shoot the son of a ***** when he breaks down my classroom door.

  10. #55
    Member Array Hotbrass's Avatar
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    Yes.
    Keep your powder dry

  11. #56
    Member Array megatron's Avatar
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    i voted yes

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    can't go with you guys on this one. In the car / after hours, sure, but during class, no. In addition, at the college level, I'm all for people (teachers and students) being armed.

    IMO, the school schooting boarder on media / anti-gun hype. Yes it happens, but gets a lot more attention then it should. Still, I just don't believe more guns is the solution to every firearm problem.

    One of those places is public schools K - 12. Security guards, maybe faculty, who are part of the schools security detail...so an added responsibility to act...an approperate amount of training and accuracy. But just let them be armed, I don't think so. I think the same about firefighters, EMT, hospital staff. Not part of the job, and I can understand why they are asked not to carry, however, this does mean the workplace needs to take responsibility for the safety, and should never prevent a person from storing a firearm in their car (save maybe a military base).
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamikaze View Post
    I doubt any teacher is going to need a gun because of an individual acting out in class. It will be because some outside force has put the school on lock-down. When the school is on lock-down is when I want to have a gun so I can shoot the son of a ***** when he breaks down my classroom door.
    Quite correct...no one would ever suspect that I was armed...until our school was picked for the national news by some outside force or a wacked out student who wished to create deadly harm to the student body.
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  14. #59
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Still, I just don't believe more guns is the solution to every firearm problem.
    Nor do I. But on the instant of bullets flying from a criminal's weapon, there are few alternatives for effectively surviving and withstanding the attack. Being armed is one of the few, distantly followed by taking him/them down without arms, escaping and magically disappearing.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  15. #60
    Member Array Precision's Avatar
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    Why are elementary school teachers and their charges ok to be gunned down by an lunatic but college aged kids and their teachers aren't?

    No one is suggesting that we arm ALL teachers, just that teachers (and the rest of us) be allowed to CCW on campuses. Even if no one actually does it, the simple fact that they could will deter some shooters. Isn't the anti's argument "if it saves on kid's life its worth it". Well in this case, I agree.

    Thanis,

    How much extra TAXES are you willing to pay to get one armed security guard per two hundred kids, per hundred kids?

    My school district has approximately 70,000 kids at about 103 schools (k-12). There are currently less than 100 armed safety officers in my school district. YES that means LESS than one per school.

    Lets assume $35k per safety officer and lets assume currently there are 100. That is $3,500,000 plus payroll taxes, benefits and such, so call it $4.5 million annually for a ratio of roughly 1 safety officer per 700 kids. Are you willing to triple that budget amount? Where do you get the money? Where do you get the "safety officers"?

    To get 1 safety officer per 200 kids (roughly 3 officers per school) would require 350 officers ( 250 new positions) at a total ANNUAL cost of $15,75,0000. In other words ADDING about $11.5 million in budget needs to a budget that is being cut by $40 million this year. From $529 milliion to $490 million (of course that includes EVERYTHING, construction, debt service, salaries...)

    Or we could ALLOW teachers and anyone else with a CCW to CONCEALED carry on property and get the same or better effect. I would suggest better, because the BG won't know I am armed nor can he keep track of all the adults, but the safety officer is pretty easy to pick out in his uniform.

    YMMV but I detest all gun free zones, but especially the feelings motivated ones.

    CCW in a prison, probably not a good idea.
    CCW in a school, why not -- what makes it any more special than a mall on friday night full of teens or a cub scout meeting or a youth soccer game...

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