And Why Not Indeed?

And Why Not Indeed?

This is a discussion on And Why Not Indeed? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am a moderator at a private forum for people from my high school and college set, it's pretty cool, they've even turned me loose ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    And Why Not Indeed?

    I am a moderator at a private forum for people from my high school and college set, it's pretty cool, they've even turned me loose with my own little subforum where I rant about 2A issues. It goes ignored mostly but I get lots of challengers. That's where a lot of these little gems I post come from.

    Snip from a recent argument where a poster actually posed a hypothetical situation to me.
    You are in an alleyway at night, there is no cover, light is not good but adequate due to streetlamps and windows, etc. You are aware that 15 feet away from you is someone wanting to kill you with a metal pipe. What do you do?

    I get in my truck and drive off to somewhere relatively safe where I call the police and then I kick my own ass for putting my stupid self in that situation. I should have avoided it in the first place.


    what If you couldn't avoid it, like you had a good reason to be there, and you couldn't escape and you knew this was going to happen.
    I'd call the authorities beforehand and explain the circumstances. I'd wait until the man with the pipe who wants to kill me was in custody before going there.

    You are being ridiculous and avoiding the issue - you can't just call the police and have them take care of it
    In that case I will make phone calls, write letters, and send forum posts and emails to everyone in Texas who I trust to use a firearm with some sort of ability and I have them all meet me there with their most effective guns, preferably all rifles.

    Sorry I wasn't clear you can't call any help it's just you and you can't get away or leave your screwed and you don't have time to call for help and you didn't know it was going to happen until it happens.
    And I know he's going to kill me? Or try to? Like he tells me he is going to kill me?

    Yeppers
    Since you orginally said he's 15 feet away from me I will produce a concealed handgun and shoot him twice in the center of the trunk of his body. If that doesn't work I will attempt to shoot him in the head but I don't think I'd get a chance to with that kind of lighting, so I'd probably shoot him twice in the trunk again. After that I don't know... if he's still coming by then he's probably hit me with the pipe already and it's game over.

    That's exactly what I thought and why I am against some dumb schmuck walking around with a loaded pistol in his pants there is no attempt here at reason or just giving the guy what he wants so he'll go away. Just automatic kill kill kill
    Where do you get off? You are changing the rules. First I try to avoid the confrontation altogether, then I try to get the authorities to handle it, then I try to overwhelm him with superior force and you say no, no, and no.

    There is no other reasonable response to this threat of physical violence than to neutralized the attacker effectively. I am not the nicest man but I don't deserve to get hit with a metal pipe or killed.

    By the way I couldn't care less if the guy dies or not... odds are excellent he will not. Handguns don't really pack the kind of power you need to be consistently lethal. That's not the point anyway, the point is I want to stop him from hurting me. Hopefully he'll live and get a trial by jury where someone else who is indifferent can decide if he did anything bad or not.

    If guns can't kill epople than why are you shooting him twice? He might be poor and starving. People who are desperate shouldn't have to worry about scared rich people killing them when they're just trying to get your wallet.
    And why not? I think anyone rich or poor should be deathly scared to even attempt to rob someone.

    I teach public school... I'm rich!? Wow someone alert the internet.



    We're done here, thread locked. Let it stand as it is and let each reader decide who "won" this argument for themselves.


  2. #2
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    That's exactly what I thought and why I am against some dumb schmuck walking around with a loaded pistol in his pants there is no attempt here at reason or just giving the guy what he wants so he'll go away. Just automatic kill kill kill
    Euc - you must have a sore head - from all the banging it on brick walls.

    You are up against the classic youthful idealist - who if in said situation would as he screams his last, be wishing he was less nieve and also was armed. "No attempt to reason" - ''Just give what he wants'' - ''he'll go away''.

    Oh my <sigh> - ''please Mr BG - spare me - here is my loose change'' - ''whack'' - ''ouch - why'd you do that?"

    ''Because I can and am bad and you are weak, called victim''.

    ''Whack" - end of another victim.
    dumb schmuck
    Pot calling kettle black methinks!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Its folks like that who make up our juries. Ohhh that poor man just wanted your wallet, so why did your head get in the way of his ____ (steel toed boots, knife, bullet, baseball bat, bottle, pipe). Use any of the enclosed answers, I worked cases where each was used to "kill" (like in dead, cancel Christmas, no more Starbucks, ice cold dead) a elitest (all their familes backed up that statement during the investigation) who had already give over their wallets, rings, watches and in one case shoes. Ya I'll give him my wallet and as it hits the ground, he'll be greated by my friend, Monsiure Sig.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array jarhead79's Avatar
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    Anyone back me up. I see college professors as a cause of a great deal of grief. They put their idealistic ideas in the heads of these young, impressionable youth. Most profs I've met are liberal hippies. In their classrooms, they have pretty much free reign to say whatever they want to say about pretty much anything. I went to a junior college, where there was a history teacher. He was quite a historian in his own right. He was also a pacifist, hippie, free-sex, liberal. We didn't get into any 'controversial' discussions the whole semester because I sensed that he avoided them like the plague, but I could also sense that if one arose, he would let loose with all sorts of psycho babble about guns and abortions and trees and frogs and rainbows and sugar cubes and who knows what else. He did let it be known on more than 10 occasions that he is very much agains war. He thinks that there is never a need under any circumstance.

    Anyway, my point is does anyone see college profs as a cause to problems. I know I do.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Array Ride4TheBrand's Avatar
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    Jfc...
    "We must remember that one man is much
    the same as another, and that he is best
    who is trained in the severest school."
    ~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War

  6. #6
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    Euc,

    Don't let it bother you too much dude. I get the same kind of reactions on my campus. Oh well.

    Sorry to steal topic, but I was wondering which forum it is that you deal with? I'm a college student, and would be interested in dabating some of the topics that you're talking about.

    --Jim
    Firefighter / EMT - Always Ready. Ever Willing.

    ~Never do anything that you don't want to have to explain to the paramedics...~

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead79
    He did let it be known on more than 10 occasions that he is very much agains war. He thinks that there is never a need under any circumstance.
    Was he FRENCH
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  8. #8
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    Don't worry Euc, this kid just put you in the middle of a 'Kobayashi Maru' Scenario.

    For those of you who aren't Star Trek fans, that is what is known as 'The No Win Scenario'. There is no solution.

    The kid said there is no escape and did not postulate that the guy wanted something from you. He said the guy wants to kill you. In that scenario there are two resolutions.

    1. He kills you.

    2. You kill him.


    Without all the theorizing that is the bottom line.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    EUC

    Sounds like this kids mind is made up. Not much if anything is going to change that.

    I try to keep a short list of justifications for carrying, And keep all statistics out of the equation, 10 different groups making a stastical analysis on the same topic will invariably come up with 10 different results. Un less you are talking about spots on the ceiling, their are a lot of different thing to consider that some will find relevant where others don't.

    This is just my opinion, You know what they say about opinions.

    Reason 1: Criminals will always have guns.
    Despite the best efforts of local, state, Federal LEA and sometimes the military, the importation of illegal drugs can not be fully stopped, so what reasonable expectation do we have of stopping the influx of guns should they be banned.

    Reason 2: LE can't be everywhere.
    Just stop sometimes during your daily activity and look around.
    No offence to the LE out there.

    Reason 3: LE is under no obligation to protect you,(the individual citizen)
    just read my sig.

    Outside of this, If you choose to be a That's your deal.
    Just remember, You only get one life. and it's YOURS to loose.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  10. #10
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead79
    Anyone back me up. I see college professors as a cause of a great deal of grief. They put their idealistic ideas in the heads of these young, impressionable youth. Most profs I've met are liberal hippies. In their classrooms, they have pretty much free reign to say whatever they want to say about pretty much anything. I went to a junior college, where there was a history teacher. He was quite a historian in his own right. He was also a pacifist, hippie, free-sex, liberal. We didn't get into any 'controversial' discussions the whole semester because I sensed that he avoided them like the plague, but I could also sense that if one arose, he would let loose with all sorts of psycho babble about guns and abortions and trees and frogs and rainbows and sugar cubes and who knows what else. He did let it be known on more than 10 occasions that he is very much agains war. He thinks that there is never a need under any circumstance.

    Anyway, my point is does anyone see college profs as a cause to problems. I know I do.
    There's a lot of truth to what you say, but not all of us professors are anti-gun. I've taken a bunch of colleagues shooting at my expense. Two bought a gun and joined the indoor range.

  11. #11
    JT
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    Distinguished Member Array JT's Avatar
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    Euc – I have a similar situation. I do a lot of posting (I’m over 10k) on a small forum where we pretty much all know each other from school and related activities. They gave me my own forum, called The Weapons Forum. If you really want to get people riled up, try posting the Sheep Dog article. Wow, did that ignite controversy. You would have thought my whole purpose in posting it was to personally insult a few of them.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  12. #12
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    Euc,

    I wonder what his reply would have been if you said "I'd have stood there and let him kill me". Wonder if he'd have called you stupid or something worse.

    Some folks just won't let you win!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  13. #13
    Member Array ibex's Avatar
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    I believe you got yourself a troll in that forum of yours. And one that cannot even make an "argument" without contradicting himself, too.

    1. you had a good reason to be there
    2. you can't call any help
    3. you can't get away or leave
    4. you didn't know it was going to happen
    5. You are aware that 15 feet away from you is someone wanting to kill you

    And his conclusion from that scenario? You are obviously trigger happy and the attacker is "poor and starving"!
    Maybe I'm weird, but when I'm hungry I want to eat, not murder.

    there is no attempt here at reason or just giving the guy what he wants so he'll go away.
    He wants to kill you. Give him what he wants... your corpse, maybe?

    This guy is a real piece of work.
    "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."
    - Senator Padmé Amidala, "Revenge of the Sith"

  14. #14
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    Euc,
    I hereby give you the Most Diligent In Debating With Numbskulls Award. I gave up wasting my time on those kind of people a long time ago.

    My college professor packed a pistol at school (private college, rules are different). The President didn't mind that I had a gun, he just asked me to keep it under wraps in my vehicle so I didn't spook anybody. (I turned 21 right before graduation, so I wouldn't have been able to carry it much anyway.) One class project was redesigning a book jacket, and I did a pro-gun book (don't remember which one). It had a Sig on the cover, which was of great interest to my instructor. He was a hardcore Libertarian, and I would catch him printing out flyers on the school printer.

    And that was art school.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array SOLOLUCKY's Avatar
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    WOW!
    The old saying " don't argue with idiots, they'll only bring you down to there level and beat you with experience."

    the comment about college prof's...look at harvard and yale promoting, heavily i might add, to get as many ex- taliban types into there university!
    what! why! so they won't be on any lists of possible targets? because they teach them how to blend into american society and make it easier to do there 'dirty work'.
    just my opinion
    R1

    This is mine. That is yours.

    Lets keep it that way.

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