If you need a gun, don't go? - Page 4

If you need a gun, don't go?

This is a discussion on If you need a gun, don't go? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey, I've been reading on this subject on many forums and I go with the prevailing wisdom. Rather than go to a nice quiet resturaunt ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Hey, I've been reading on this subject on many forums and I go with the prevailing wisdom. Rather than go to a nice quiet resturaunt with my wife, I am gonna strap on my Desert Eagle in OCC, my BERSA in left pocket, KAHR 9 in right pocket and a KELTEC in an ankle holster and go into the meanest gang banger bar I can find. I have to show them I can do this or they will take over the world. Nobody can stop me because , by gosh, I have Second Amendment Rights! Read most of the posts, this is a pretty close summation.

    You can do this, ONCE! The question is, who is going to shoot you, the Law or the Gang Bangers?

    Nice resturaunt without booze, J-Frame in the right pocket, 2 Speed strips in left pocket, friendly smile on my face, plan to react in my head. The gray man is gray and old, and going to get a lot older!

    If you have to show your stones, remember: they bury your stones with you!
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    ... prevailing wisdom ... strap on my Desert Eagle in OCC, my BERSA in left pocket, KAHR 9 in right pocket and a KELTEC in an ankle holster and go into the meanest gang banger bar I can find.
    As you imply, "wisdom" such as that prevails only for a time, and in such minds as don't mind running into reality.

    Nice resturaunt without booze, J-Frame in the right pocket, 2 Speed strips in left pocket, friendly smile on my face, plan to react in my head. The gray man is gray and old, and going to get a lot older!
    The "gray man" analogy is much more along the lines of the typical wisdom of folks who frequent DC. By all means, live our lives. But, do so with eyes wide open, some preparation, and while exercising some common sense. That goes a long way.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Negative. The "Gray Man" tag came from the Intelligence (Spies) community and means an effective agent who is even more effective because he is non-descript and never noticed in a crowd. the Gray Man is very aware but he doesn't try to stand out or to take risks to jeopardize his mission. My mission is to stay alive, not make a political statement.

    DC people fit the forum tag "sheeple."

    I did three tours in RVN and made 3 opposed landings (Lebanon 2X and Grenada.) I am still alive and I didn't do it by standing up or standing out and daring somebody to shoot at me. I also didn't lead my people into possible ambushes. Walking into a known possible ambush area is asking to be in somebody's "kill zone".

    Practicing Gray Man skills is not cowardice or ignorance, it is wisdom grasshopper!

    Some people have to go into bad areas because of their official duties or job. My heart goes out to them but I have survived long enough to be retired and do not have to challenge the homies on their home ground.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  4. #49
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Very interesting thread.

    When I was younger, I might have inclined toward the "I'm gonna do whatever I want, because I can, it's my RIGHT, by Gawd, and to do less is to surrender to the scum" sentiment.

    The degree to which I agree with sentiment has diminished with the amount of hair remaining on my head, and with the amount of that hair which is not gray.
    (speaking of "gray man" skills....)

    Why ask for trouble? My dad used to ask that question and assure me that I would find more than enough trouble to satisfy me without looking for more.

    He was right.

    I agree with whichever Sage wrote above that if he wouldn't go to a place without a gun, he darned sure wasn't going to go there (except in case of necessity) with one, either.

    Me, too.

    But I also think we're debating here between two polar extremes- - a false dichotomy.

    Very few of us are really and truly even going to consider going somewhere we know is trouble just because we have a gun on us. I hope. Even when youngest and dumbest I wouldn't have done that.

    Very few of us are going to brick our doors shut out of fear and sit in our La-Z-Boyz with Ma Deuce trained on the drying mortar, either.

    Where you're going and what you know to happen there, if bad, has always got to be factor. I guess it already is, or the issue wouldn't have come up.

    Maybe sometimes you choose to go somewhere else, or at a different time.

    But I don't think any of us should go somewhere (except maybe the range) just 'cause we have us a piece strapped on.
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

  5. #50
    Distinguished Member Array SubNine's Avatar
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    I know of a couple places where you would need a gun to participate,

    A firing range and a gun fight!
    USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

    I am the God fearing, gun toting, flag waving conservative you were warned about!

  6. #51
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRTCP88 View Post
    Hey, I've heard a lot of people say stuff like "If you need a gun where you're going, you shouldn't go there." I disagree. I don't think you should let criminals change your routine either way, ie you shouldn't go looking for a fight, but you also shouldn't let them intimidate you into not going certain places if you are going there for legitimate purposes.

    Am I wrong? I would like y'all's opinion on this since, as I've said many times, I do not have my CCW yet and want to make sure that I am a smart and responsible sheepdog once I get my permit.

    Let me give you an example. I was on an extended vacation in Canada last year living with my sister who is studying art up there. I've always been interested in martial arts but haven't ever had the opportunity to train as there was never a dojo near by, and we moved around a lot. As you can probably imagine, there were plenty in Toronto where my sister and I were living.

    So, I decided to start training in Aikido. The dojo I chose to attend was in a shady part of town. FTR, I never actually got into a confrontation or even heard about one, thank god, but the neighborhood had a vibe about it that gave me the heebie geebies. I decided to keep going though because I tried other dojos and didn't like the instructors as much as the ones at this school.

    Should I have found another place to study?
    I'm not going to pick at your entire post, just give you my $0.02. That and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee at the local diner.

    I am of the opinion that if you need a gun that you shouldn't go there. Nobody knows when they will, or even if they will need a gun. If I have knowledge of needing a gun I will not go there, or take a longarm and several friends with longarms.

    I do not throw chum in to the water and then go swimming in shark infested waters. That's what you are doing, IMHO, when you go someplace where you "need a gun". Criminals, as much as we might hate it, do alter our behavior. Just like when there is a tornado, that alters our kite flying endeavors. Criminals are why we lock our doors.

    If you don't lock the doors to your truck or car and park it in the worst crime ridden neighborhood in your city not too many people will feel sorry for you when you get your $1,200 Car Stereo stolen. I know I won't. You should've at least locked the doors to your vehicle.

    I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make here. Massad Ayoob said it very well, "There are no winners in a gunfight, only survivors." Another way of saying it is, don't go looking for trouble, as you just might find it.

    Professionaly I swim in shark infested water with chum swirling all around me. That's what I'm paid to do, and I like what I do for a living.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; May 24th, 2009 at 01:39 PM. Reason: typo

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    Practicing Gray Man skills is not cowardice or ignorance, it is wisdom grasshopper!
    That was the point.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array FastDraw's Avatar
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    Just because I carry doesn't mean I will go storming into a bar known to be a hangout for the Mongols Motorcycle gang.....

    I know I have the "right" to have a beer or two there, but I wont. That to me is just common sense.

    Be Alert and Stay Safe

    FastDraw

  9. #54
    Member Array KSCarry's Avatar
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    You never know when you'll need your gun, so my thought is that you should always carry. If you know for a fact that you are going to need your gun then I hope you are either walking into the firing range or a LEO going on duty. Otherwise don't go there.

  10. #55
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecumseh View Post
    You can't really believe this, can you?
    The state of Illinois made it impossible for any of those women to defend themselves. Five of the six are dead. Unless the state legislature ACCIDENTALLY passed anti-CCW legislation, they MEANT for those women to be disarmed, and knew the likely consequences.

    Two possibilities:

    A - The women can defend themselves.

    B - The women can't defend themselves.

    Illinois chose B. I don't see anybody appologizing for choosing B. They got the result which they preferred.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array Sky Pilot's Avatar
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    "If you need a gun where you're going, you shouldn't go there."
    An oversimplified statement, used by our enemies to offer a simplistic answer to those who don't know any better.
    On its face, yes, it makes sense.
    UNFORTUNATELY --
    My crystal ball ran out of batteries last week and Wal-Mart doesn't carry the size it uses, so I don't know when John J. Bad Guy is going to appear and do bad things.
    Each of the times I have had desperate need of the defensive sidearm, was off duty, out of uniform, and not expecting to come into trouble.
    If one has foreknowledge that a place or a situation is trouble, well, that's one thing.
    If evil comes upon us without our foreknowledge, that's entirely another.
    "Deine Papieren bitte?" or "ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ !"
    (Choose only one)
    NRA Endowment Member
    "I bark at no man's bid. I will never come and go, and fetch and carry, at the whistle of the great man in the White House no matter who he is." -- David Crockett

  12. #57
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    Of course, the ones that get me are the people who normally carry a little pocket gun but will carry a real pistol "when I'm going to a 'bad' part of town" (too lazy to carry one the rest of the time).


  13. #58
    Senior Member Array my2cents's Avatar
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    I was robbed at gunpoint in a nice part of town while minding my own business. This was many years before I became a CHP holder. It is impossible to predict when someone is going to try to take advantage of you.
    Walk steathly - and carry a big Springfield.

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    IMO...if you anticipate trouble and you can avoid it.......avoid it.
    If it finds you and your prepared, then deal with it.
    Other than that don't look for problems just because you have the CCL, always use good risk assessment first.

  15. #60
    Member Array sspargo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    The state of Illinois made it impossible for any of those women to defend themselves. Five of the six are dead. Unless the state legislature ACCIDENTALLY passed anti-CCW legislation, they MEANT for those women to be disarmed, and knew the likely consequences.

    Two possibilities:

    A - The women can defend themselves.

    B - The women can't defend themselves.

    Illinois chose B. I don't see anybody appologizing for choosing B. They got the result which they preferred.


    Excellent Post!!!
    "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

    DID YOU KNOW: 89.3% of all quoted statistics are fabricated

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