This is a discussion on Wife and I were talking. Her biggest fear is someone taking my gun and using it on us within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by retsupt99 Sure, stuff can happen, that's why you learn, practice, and train...even if just a little bit. You just don't buy a ...
Courage: "Do not follow where the path may lead...go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
Retired Army, Infantry
NRA Life Member
If they intend to kill you, they're going to kill you for sure if you don't have the gun. If you do have the gun, at least you've got a chance. Have your wife take the NRA "Personal Protection Outside the Home Course", or at least the "Refuse to be a Victim" course.
Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com
Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.
For a CCW'er (whether private citizen or off-duty/UC LEO) the odds of having the gun taken from your holster are slimmer, though still not zero. Understanding some simple weapons retention skills -- and as others have said, keeping the gun truly concealed -- will eliminate most problems. Some carry methods are more effective than others. For example, it's far easier for me to protect my gun in my AIWB holster than it is for someone to fight off a grab against a shoulder holster.
The greater danger for a CCW'er is having the gun taken away once it's out. The only way to alleviate that threat is through awareness, judgment, and training. If someone is within arm's reach of you, a gun is probably not the right answer, at least not immediately.
"I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything!" Bart Simpson
I'm not suggesting you're ignorant of that, but it's worth noting for the CCW public at large that choosing a pistol as your weapon at contact distances has a lot of drawbacks.
I would suggest taking a defensive pistol course together. It would be a huge confidence booster for both of you.
"Anyone worth shooting, is probably worth shooting several times."
I have yet to come across a specific statistic on this but the event does occur and it occurs often, like at least once per month on the order of children being shot in the home.
It occurs to law enforcement officers often enough that they now in academy specifically train to defeat this in hand to hand combat though even with that it still happens often, too often.
In news reports I see this occur toward civilians even more often than LEOs. Be the civilian wielding a longgun or a handgun and be the civilian the GG or even the BG.
This happens a lot and is featured in national media stories again at least once per month on average. Local news items that do not make it nationally even more so.
This is why it's important to train so as to develop a mindset.
If you draw or bring a firearm to bear then at that point you are _committed_.
If secondarily occasion comes that you are justified to shoot (see my earlier thread on 'J.A.M.') and you do not do so allowing Deebo or Michael Myers to contact you and thereafter struggle for your gun, then it is now too late and you very likely will lose the firearm having it wrested from your control. Again this happens a lot just be news reports alone, which clearly do not represent 100% of instances.
Thus the reason and good advisory to carry secondary and even third level stand off tools as well as defensive products.
Items such as a can of pepper spray as a stand of tool or a functional cutting/piercing tool of some sort such as but not exclusively a knife for primary or worst case scenario secondary defense against a highly motivated attacker or attackers plural attempting to disarm you.
Your wifes concern is very much valid as based on real world events that have. do, and will occur.
Your response could or should have been that you _train_ with this in mind and as such have developed a more round foundation of self defense than the average Joe in the sense of standing on a line and shooting at static targets 21 feet away.
When is the last time you were at a range and saw a fellow shooter running drills against a target at X inches away or at contact distance?
I thought so. You could count as much on one finger for most folks in their lifetime.
Examples of good training toward defeating gun take away events would include but not be exclusive to learning how to;
* 'Point Shoot' with a handgun and able to do so with close to body retention just at and from draw from the holster and continuing outward in distinct steps/stages of presentation from there. Body alignment and muscle memory is key here as you will be firing unsighted in this mode of engagement and interaction for CQC type engagement and defense. See member Brownie for more on this as related to his instruction toward 'Quick kill' combatives education which date back to the use and instruction by the US Army. It was then and still is very much effective even as oddly enough it as a skill has fallen out of general public favor, which has resulted in folks losing their fight and life as a result.
I personally did not train under Brownie but instead Mike Rayburn of Rayburn Law Enforcement Traning (http://www.pointshooting.org) who teaches 'point shooting' for handgun and combat intended & setup shotgun following the lessons and teachings of Applegate, Sykes, and Fairbairn. His books and in person instruction is excellent, IMHO, as well as being very highly regarded amongst the LEO community.
Jelly Bryce, FBI - A highly successful and skilled point shooting practitioner
* Learning how to setup and run a shotgun for the purpose of combat and specifically home defense.
Two years ago there was a story about a man attempting to defend his home from a bruglar at his door that he very much unwisely contacted at his door and _opened the door_ to tell him to stop attempting to breach it by force. He was armed with a hunting/clays type long barrel shotgun. Very much unwise. A struggle ensued at the now breached weak point, thanks to the homeowner opening his own floodgate (!), and the BG being stronger than the homeowner took hold of the shotgun barrel and used it against him in a game of tug of war only to wind up disarming him. The BG then went on to shoot the homeowner and the home owners son who also had been in the home and witnessed the engagement. The Homeowner died and the son came close to it but survived.
This is not a CQC (close quarters combat) home defense applicable firearm even as it might be chambered so as to stop deer or bear, at a distance from cover in a field...
This is a CQC and HD applicable shotgun, which BTW like all shotguns that shoot shot as a projectile is pointed and not 'aimed'. Note it's size as in length and configuration as related to the field purposed shotgun above
Very many Americans do not understand this fact and as a result have found themselves being disarmed or even owned for this lack of knowledge or inability to see the reality of such a firearms limitations...even as it might be chambered in 3" 12 GA. Magnum.
* Learn how to use and to carry a CNS product on their person, and when to apply it.
Specifically OC and/or CS product and to know how to use it and under what conditions which may in specific cases mean closing distance with Deebo or Michael rather than stepping back prior to it's application.
* Learn how to use a knife _and_ other improvised weapons defensively.
* Learn how to defend yourself with empty hand no tool strikes and specific blows between your head, hands, arms & elbows, knees, and feet.
* Learn how to make use of cover and locate concealment.
* Learn how to read people as related to body language and other non-verbal cues as well as spoken word tone and manner of speech. Dog people know this very well, specifically dog trainers and those owners/handlers who have been through many hours of instruction and active handling with K9s. Dogs and humans are very similar though in subtle ways.
* Develop a more balanced and round sense of 'street smarts'.
If you are from the country or a largely rural life background then you could and should sharpen your city as opposed to town people reading skills. Same applies vice versa for those who largely are urban or even suburban as related to the ex-burbs and rural folks, who do roll differently in subtle and not so subtle ways.
There is reading on this amongst human behavior...or one could go it first hand direct stepping into the environment and keep a keen eye out as an observer in a anthropological mode of review.
This also applies to interacting with groups of people who culturally are different than you. Note I said "culture" not 'race'. There is a distinct and big difference.
* Learn about alternative and atypical defense tools such as staffs, canes, umbrellas, and more. See the 'Dog Brothers' for an example of this though they are not at all the only nor first to understand and use this. Just any urban/city raised person or a professional prison guard.
BTW disarmament of open carry persons happens with regularity toward LEOs who in fact most often are victimized as such by BGs. Not because I say so. The FBI and their own police training groups do.
Civilians who open carry have also been noted in the news for same including last summer a case in Sterling, VA where an open carrying citizen was attacked from behind and disarmed. This does occur though again more regularly for police who very much more so than civilians and are most often open carrying.
So to your wife I would take this as an opportunity.
I would respond along the lines of; Hey you know I train but there are some additional things I've had in mind to further sharpen my skills and increase my flexibility. I plan to take a another class of three this year and I'm researching a specific shotgun as well as investigating a new holster for carry and _on body_ (!) retention of my handgun as well as to pickup a can or two of pepper spray and a knife too.
Now what started out as a discussion to the negative has been turned into a PO toward buying more cool gear and spending time doing what you have mindset toward and possibly even enjoy. If she in reply balks at _any_ of that then the obvious response would be; But honey this will better allow me to survive and spend more time with you.
Janq - Good post. One small correction, however, is felt by me to be neccessary. A shotgun, especially at close range, is aimed, not pointed.
This as fact is not obvious to many folks until it's too late, and that includes LEOs as well as civilians.
Take a course on combatives and/or force on force (FoF) and this will become clearly evident.
Further there are distinct times when counter to common belief and action it is better/best to _close_ distance_ with your attacker rather than to attempt to retreat and open a gap.
Again this will become clearly evident in a course that features specifically combatives training and/or FoF which would include not just a handgun but longgun (simulation) as well as knife, improvised weapons, and empty hand as well.
Here on this board we have a number of active persons who have stated exact same through the years and that are themselves trainers available for civilian and/or LEO application.
This is in no way an endorsement of the following but to my mind and observation per their words they do and have in the past spoken to items that to my own understanding, training, and real world efforts to survive meaner streets have witnessed first hand and/or endured...
* Tom Perroni
* 'QK Brownie'
* 'ToddG' (Pistol-Training)
A shotgun is to be pointed at the target and the trigger pulled to fire.
This is due to it's smooth bore design and the munitions it uses in order to function, without regard to action, barrel length or what type of sights are installed if any at all.
Especially so at close distances as in relation to defense be the target static or moving.
In fact at close distances including CQC no sights at all are necessary nor required. The firearm itself is the sight with it's barrels to be _pointed_ at the target and the trigger actuated.
Sights on a shotgun are not used for aiming. They only provide a reference point toward making it easier for the eye to allow for lead and swing. Though that is applicable to longer distance shots against moving targets.
The shotgun is not a long distance tool...with narrow exception for rifled bore shotguns which then are effectively and functionally a 'rifle'.
But back on point the shotgun firing shot projectile is a point and click device across all distance ranges of applied use.
For specifically combat application it is same and no sights at all never mind 'aiming' is required nor involved.
Remington 870 combat purposed minus all the unnecessary tacti-cool market and marketing dept. driven 'shotgun sighting' systems garbage as commonly seen and sold to suckas
My wife let me know one day that if something happened to me while I was carrying, she would take my gun and use it! She's not licensed and doesn't feel like she has the anger control to do so, but I've taken her to the range and she's familiar with guns. Shortly after her statement to me , I unloaded my weapon and demonstrated taking the safety off, the fact that there is a round in the chamber, how to remove and install a magazine, and to rack the slide. She's not crazy about shooting my .45 acp 1911, but she has before.
Your wife has every right to feel the way she does, and she does have a point. The gun CAN and WILL be taken away from you and used to kill you - if you don't know what you are doing.
There was a case in Miami about 10 years ago - I am from Miami - where two guys were racing each other down the highway and things got ugly. They stopped on the side of the highway, one guy came to to other's car to fight. The guy in the car pulled a gun, and the other guy took it away and killed him with it.
My point is that - rather than try to convince her that her feelings are wrong, which they aren't - use those feelings positively.
Encourage her, and yourself - to learn as much as you can about handgun safety and defense, so that the likelihood of your gun being taken from you is greatly reduced.
A little bit of fear when dealing with guns is good. We all fear being shot, that is why we carry a gun in the first place. We all fear shooting ourselves, that is why we learn how to handle safely. We all fear a criminal shooting us - whether with our own gun or not - that is why we learn defensive technique to reduce that chance.
Good luck to you!
I would add my 2-cents worth but I’d rather say…. VERY good post JANG…
Hmm. I see what you mean in a way, I just bristle when people say that, because of the spread, you don't need to aim with a shotgun.