Wife and I were talking. Her biggest fear is someone taking my gun and using it on us - Page 3

Wife and I were talking. Her biggest fear is someone taking my gun and using it on us

This is a discussion on Wife and I were talking. Her biggest fear is someone taking my gun and using it on us within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi. I'm new, just joined. If it is the case that your wife is scared of guns, or even just apprehensive of them, she should ...

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  1. #31
    New Member Array CBRinNC's Avatar
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    Good advice.... tell your wife about Women on Target

    Hi. I'm new, just joined.

    If it is the case that your wife is scared of guns, or even just apprehensive of them, she should check into Women on Target. It's through the NRA and it is a program of gun education, safety education, and actual hands-on instruction. The instructors are women as often as they can get them, with male instructors as needed (competition shooters, law enforcement officers, etc.) I just went Saturday for the umpteenth time... I LOVE it and take new ladies with me each time I go. For $25.00 we got extensive safety training, lunch, and use of the instructors' (or our own) handguns with 100 rounds supplied for .22, .38, or 9 mm (here), or your wife could take the handgun she would most likely have to use in your home and her own ammo. There are 16-year-old young ladies up to great grandmothers each time I go. Education is a great way to bring her around, and after shooting 100 rounds any apprehension a woman could possibly have is GONE.

    Check here for one near you: NRA Women's Programs

    You should also let her know that concealed carry would actually be helpful in preventing your gun from being taken....how would anyone know you had it to begin with? As concealed carry becomes more prevalent, I would think criminals will be more worried about who might be a threat to them. What a nice turn-around that would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorw View Post
    Is it possible that your wife just isn't comfortable with firearms in general? Have her take a basic handgun class or a concealed carry class, if that is the case.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by United93 View Post
    Hmm. I see what you mean in a way, I just bristle when people say that, because of the spread, you don't need to aim with a shotgun.
    That comment though is not at all the same thing within the scope of this conversation in specific.

    A shotgun is pointed at it's target and it's trigger pulled, being a more coarse accuracy firearm due to it's smooth bore and relatively low pressure ammunition and the projectile being shot which as you noted has a spread.

    A rifle and handgun is aimed at it's target and the trigger is squeezed, being a fine and precision accuracy firearm due to it's bore being rifled and relatively high pressure ammunition and the projectile being solid firing on a trajectory and without a spread.

    A smooth bore handgun is a point and shoot firearm as well, akin to a shotgun.


    While a shotgun with a rifled barrel firing a solid projectile is an 'aimed' firearm, akin to a rifle or handgun.


    Both of these above are existent but as to the context of this conversation, non-hunting combat/defense, neither is applicable nor are they in general as widely common or thought of as being a 'shotgun' as is that of a smooth bore long gun using shot type projectile ammunition.

    What you're thinking of are toward people who state or assume that by pointing a shotgun firing specifically shot within the general direction of a target, that the target itself will be stopped simply by the power of the shotguns blast and that some magical amount on the order of hundreds of BB s will impact the target that is basically anywhere down range and be lifted up into the air and thrown back just like BGs on TV and movies.
    That is not at all what I was nor am speaking toward. And clearly that sentiment is false as based on facts oh shotgun ammunition construction, smooth bore barrel spread, and an understanding of basic physics.

    All three of these items are very often misunderstood with misconceptions. The latter though to which you specifically have in mind comes from folks watching too much TV, reading fiction books, and/or talking to mall ninjas. :p

    To hit any target at what ever distance within it's ammunition effective range one must _point_, not aim, the firearm either at the target if it's static or lead the target and be sure to complete follow through if the target is at a distance and there is movement by either it and/or the firearms operator.
    This is due to the ammunition type being shot projectiles and the shotguns smooth bore construction without regard to the shotguns action, caliber, chamber size, barrel length, or what sights might be attached to it if any...or the fictional character/Mall Ninja wielding it.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  3. #33
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    Sorry if I insulted you, or seemed to lump you with the 'mall ninjas'. The fact of the matter is, especially at close range, you are more likely to hit the target if you aim the shotgun, rather than just point it.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Not at all. : )

    Definitely you are not the 'mall ninja' person nor am I.
    I meant as related to the persons you have in mind who state/post as much as an advisory to others about how you just blast and hit what ever is forward of the muzzle...without any regard by statement to proper pointing of the firearm (shotgun) as related to point of aim and actually striking the target fully and optimally.

    As to close range which is all that a shotgun is good for anyway there is no aiming, again it is pointed.

    I mention this only to be most accurate, for those reading/observing our dialog, as this item comes up often with folks thinking that a smooth bore shotgun is to be handled same as a rifle. It's very common and you even see people in imagery taking cheekwelds to the shotguns stock as well as closing of the off eye too toward aiming.
    Completely unnecessary and not applicable for the specific firearm and in some cases by application such as with CQC/home defense can be limiting and even get people killed thanks to wasting time to 'aim' rather than point as is most proper, and accurate.

    For those reading this who are not up on how to run a shotgun the IHEA (International Hunter Education Association) has an excellent chapter detail on all that I speak of as related to shotgun and how it's very much different than a rifle as related to human interface including being pointed and not 'aimed' as with a rifle...

    Fundamentals of Shotgun Shooting
    http://homestudy.ihea.com/shootingskills/17shotgun.htm

    Additionally the same is addressed in most IHEA endorsed and accredited online hunter education programs (which I'm not a fan of but that is getting off topic) as shown below...

    * Point a shotgun. Pull the trigger.
    * Aim a rifle. Squeeze the trigger.



    ~~~

    12.15 Shotgun Shooting

    A shotgun is pointed at the target, not aimed like a rifle. Most shotgun targets move quickly, so it is necessary to point ahead of the target. This is called leading your target. The drawing shows an example of "leading" and proper follow through.



    Leading the Target

    The two most common methods of leading targets at long distances are swing-through and sustained lead.



    Point your shotgun at a moving target and swing with it. Increase the speed of the gun so that the muzzle passes the target and then fire. In other words, literally “swing through” the target and fire at a blank space in front of the target. Swing-through is the best technique for the beginning student.


    This method is a little more challenging because it requires more experience. You estimate the length of the lead necessary to hit the target and maintain that lead as you swing with the target, fire, and continue the swing.


    Snap-shooting is a technique to use if you must make a quick shot and the target is straight ahead at close range. You simply raise the shotgun and point where you think the target will be when the shot arrives.

    As borrowed via GIS from the CA Dept. of Fish & Game
    http://www.hunter-ed.com/ca/course/ch3_six_steps.htm
    In my off time I am an USFWS, MA Dept.of Fish & Wildlife, and NH Dept. of Fish & Game volunteer instructor toward basic hunter education and amongst that focus on firearms handling and application as well as mechanics of use. I also am certified to and do instruct in various other areas and am an instructor member of the IHEA as well.

    This sub-conversation subject commentary, the question of point rather than 'aim' with shotgun in specific, and how hunting skills and shotguns in specific are not always transferable toward combat use (here in MA a BHE cert may be accepted toward securing a license to carry), comes up a lot in my travels and again a lot of folks have misconceptions about this even as they have been shooting clays or hunting game for years while running a 'shotgun'...and practicing "aimed" fire which is in fact incorrect.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #35
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    ...wasting time to 'aim' rather than point as is most proper, and accurate.

    - Janq
    I respectfully object. It is not more accurate to point; it is more accurate to aim. That is the whole point (pun intended) of aiming. At close range the extremely minimal spread does not justify adopting a different method than that used with a rifle. To do so is to invite a miss.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Not at all United, unless you call this missing...

    Below are vids showing real world examples of the difference between the norm of pointing a shotgun at a target or targets plural and aiming a shotgun at the target for specific applied use as a 'rifle'.

    Pointing w/shot

    Police World Champion combat shooting
    YouTube - Police World Champion combat shooting

    Beretta Shotgun
    YouTube - Beretta Shotgun


    Aiming w/slugs shotgun used as a rifle

    Shotgun Training - short range rifle - Mark "Six" James
    YouTube - Shotgun Training - short range rifle - Mark "Six" James

    12 Gauge Slug at 300 Yards
    YouTube - 12 Gauge Slug at 300 Yards

    The shotgun is and has always been a point and click type firearm.



    To be clear the following is the definition of 'aim' as related to handling a firearm:
    "Definition for "aim" : Holding the firearm, aligning the sights, and preparing to fire on a target.

    Source - http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdicti...erm?TermID=936
    A shotgun may not even come with sights and most commonly if it does it's a single front bed or maybe a second mid bead along the barrel rib.
    Aligning of sights is not done with a shotgun nor is necessary. A shotguns barrel(s) is pointed at the target as within range.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #37
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    We may, in fact, be in agreement. If by 'aiming' you mean 'focus on the sights', and by 'pointing' you mean 'focus on the threat', then I agree that a close range defensive firearm should be 'pointed'. That does not prevent me from using the sights on pistol, rifle, or shotgun, it just means that the primary focus is not on them.

    Thank you very much, Janq, for an informative and thought-provoking series of posts.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yep.

    Your definitions as stated are exactly dead on. : )

    With rifle and handgun sights are to be used as 'aimed' fire, with exception of 'point shooting' which is not a norm for use but clearly is effective when applied within narrow margins.
    They stand on their own as being their own individual firearm formats and firing systems as related to targeting and hitting with accuracy and speed.

    Same applies to a shotgun which itself is it's own individual firearm format being smooth bore and firing shot as a projectile.
    While with shotgun pointing is very much the norm for use regardless of what sight aid might be attached to it or even nothing at all (no bead no rib no sights at all).
    Exceptions also are narrow band and quite specific as related to the barrel specifically being rifled and as such used with solid projectile ammunition (not Foster type for smooth bore barrels). And example of this sort of shotgun which is aimed as it's really a large bore rifle are deer slug guns and various militaries around the world using them as a close range anti-materiel engagement gun.

    See here for an example of as much being an exception to the general rule with a slug shotgun running optics that is _aimed_ and definitely not to be pointed as fired for the given application.


    Tack-Driving Slug Gun: The RSG-12 Tar-Hunt
    Custom gun maker Randy Fritz gets MOA accuracy from $2,000 shotguns.
    March, 97 Tack

    Thank you for giving me an opportunity to stretch my mind and brain power.
    Times like this where I might not be getting through in how I'm stating things is a challenge by which I can then myself learn and from that adapt toward use in class when instructing students. It's one thing to know something but a whole other task to be able to relay as much so that other folks understand and can appreciate it. Especially an item such as this that is darn near heretical in concept. :p

    Regards,

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    People do have their weapons removed from them and used against them. But, my sentiments are... only because they were unwilling to pull the trigger or make the necessary actions to stop a threat.

    If they are unprepared to use it if/when needed, don't carry it.

  10. #40
    Member Array gatorgrizz27's Avatar
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    Florida State University : Research in Review

    I go to FSU and saw this the other day and thought, great, more liberal propaganda telling everyone guns are evil. Instead, it was a very well written article researching gun saftey, especially CCW, by an objective researcher. He states that he is neither pro gun or anti gun, but researches the facts and statistics alone. There is a place in there where he addresses the issue of a BG using your gun against you and says it is incredibly unlikely and almost unheard of. Its a good article for people that want something unbiased.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Almost all "taken away" incidents involve cops, usually while trying to subdue someone using less than lethal force.

    I've taken to saying to people who have this irrational fear, "Well, if it's that easy for him to take it from me, I'll just take it right back. We'll just stand there swapping the gun back and forth..."
    If somebody tries to take my gun, they're probably going to get shot with it.
    Perfect rationle.

    Good post!
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Winston Churchill

  12. #42
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    Array shooterX's Avatar
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    My wife doesn't understand why I carry either. I try to explain that I view it as a duty as a law abiding citizens to aid in the protection and defense of not only my family but of those who can not or will not defend themselves. She still doesn't get it, but hse is very liberal compared to me.

  13. #43
    New Member Array HKCapt's Avatar
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    I often have this discusion in the work environment, usually with people who don't know much about guns or have an agenda against them. Sometimes an explanation that the 2nd Ammendment is the one that makes all the others possible works, sometimes it's something simpler. Such as, "Do you have a fire extinguiisher at home? Why?"

    Then they start to get it. Sometimes.

  14. #44
    Member Array KSCarry's Avatar
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    I think most of the "taken away" conversation centers around the fact that most folks assume a gun is for show and not to use in a gunfight. Below is one of my favorite links about gunfighting. My favorite rule is:

    10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

    Petzal: The Rules of Gunfighting | Field & Stream

  15. #45
    Member Array SHOOTER13's Avatar
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    Exclamation My 2 cents...

    If you join the NRA, one of the perks besides having "thee most powerful lobby in Washington" fighting to preserve your 2nd Amendment 'rights'...is receiving one of three magazines. The one I get is called American Rifleman and contains a page or two called "The Armed Citizen" detailing stories of ordinary people using their guns to protect themselves and their famililes...stories never reported by the media.

    These people didn't let themselves become victims...they met force with force...knowing full well the police are not mandated to protect them...and usually arrive too late to do anything but zip up the body bags.

    Tell her there are two types of people in this world: victims and victors...then ask her which she would rather be.

    I think she'll decide to be pro-active...

    BTW...rules 10 thru 13 always apply to any gunfight:

    10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

    11. Stretch the rules. Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

    12. Have a plan.

    13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. "No battle plan ever survives 10 seconds past first contact with an enemy."
    SHOOTER13
    ================
    DoD: Peace thru Superior Firepower

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