This is a discussion on An acquaintance believes in carrying concealed... but without a permit within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Hiram I don't know if the CCW laws eliminated the "prudent man" defense to carrying w/o a permit. Used to be it ...
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The laws in Arizona make no distinction in our justifiable use of force statutes as to whether the carrying of a gun is legal. Concealed carry without a permit is a criminal offense. So, you could legally defend yourself and still end up in jail for breaking the law. The two are not inconsistent.Originally Posted by Hiram
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The law is the law and should be followed. I suspect there are alot of people who carry concealed without a permit. I would also suspect that some of those people cannot obtain a permit for some legal reason that they wont speak of why so they give B.S. excuses for their reasoning. I also think that we, as law abiding citizens that are permitted to carry, should report such violations of the 2nd Amendment and the laws of our communities.
"Government is not the solution to our problem; government IS the problem". - Ronald Reagan 1981
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Very true !!!
I know more people who carry w/o a CCW than with one; and they are "GG" actually a lot of ladies in their fifties ++.
I don't agree, but there is a lot of things people I know do, that I don't agree with ...
I have given up "educating" people a long time ago; like trying to teach a pig to sing, you loose your time and annoy the pig.
What I do, however, is tell people how I do things and why; then it is their choice to think about it and change, or not.
The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
The second rule: "Bring enough gun"
jfl (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)
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"........going back to school for an advanced degree"
And he expects to claim ignorance?? yuk
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Too bad It's not a degree in "common sense"
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
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Grady, keep working on him in a friendly way.
One of my engineering friends at work absolutely digs his heels into the ground and states the the second amendment is his carry permit.
I simply tell him that I agree in principle but unfortunately, when the gavel slams, he is going to be found guilty if found with a loaded gun in public here in TN.
I further declared to him that one difference between him and me is that I carried yesterday in the drug store, the mall etc. and he did not because he simply does not want to run the risk. He admitted I was correct but he still will not get a permit. Round and round we go.
Oh how I wish for Vermont style carry.
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Maybe buy him a badge?
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I have a couple of buddies that carry without a permit, both say they don't want to be on a list that the feds could come confiscate their weapons.
Later I found one had a previous incident that would probably kept him from getting his carry permit. Don't know about the other guy but I will not think the worst.
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On this point, I disagree entirely.
Reality is, being documented means one can be targeted. Given the history of confiscation around the world, I can see the point.
But, in no way is an otherwise upstanding citizen similar to criminals who actually execute crimes, merely because one refuses to go through the paperwork. Witness Vermont, for example. Being a criminal requires executing a criminal act against others, not merely being labeled a criminal by a bureaucrat/legislator. IMO, that's the way it should be. Absolutely.
Understand, I don't agree with his position at all. He's risking his freedom and future attentions from the law. I've gone down the path of legal, documented carrying, and I chose to because it's the legally approved method.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
Thoughts: Justifiable self defense.
Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
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Lets be relativistic here if you bought your handgun or any gun from an FFL your probably on a list. The vast majority of gun owners don't carry their gun anyways so this would be a very limited list of gun owners to confiscate from. Also unless your state puts the make and model of gun on your carry permit,then simply having a permit doesn't prove you even own a gun it just proves you have a permit to carry one. Either way its not worth breaking the law get your license and be legal.
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I could actually understand if someone refused to get a CCW permit because they didn't want to be on a list if confiscations begin. Such a strategy still carries risk, but many of us assume risk on some level anyway.
I also understand those who say they shouldn't need a permit because the 2A is all they need. Still carries risk, but that position I do understand.
I also understand someone carrying without a permit if some past misdeed prevents them from getting a permit: the old adage "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." If the choice is possibly a prison term or possibly being killed/your family being killed, I understand carrying anyway.
I do understand those situations, and I'm not opposed to them. IMO the government has no right to tell me I can't defend myself. And I will choose how I will defend myself. A blade isn't going to do me much good against multiple armed home invaders (and the criminals will always have guns). For some of you, maybe, but for me, the odds will not be in my favor.
What I don't understand is my acquaintance's naive belief that he will be shown mercy because supposedly he "didn't know the law."
When the time is right, I'll gently ask him if he is unable to get a permit due to some issue in his past. If that isn't the issue, I will try to learn more about his mindset, whether he indeed is trusting in the "naive card" or the "mercy card". I plan to print out a local CCW class info and give to him. Then I'll give him the printout of sentencing info for carrying illegally. Then I'll leave him alone and let him make his own decision.
Ultimately, we are all responsible for our own choices. I'll try to help him because I care about him, but in the end, I'll respect his right to make his own decisions.
We can help some people, but we cannot help those who refuse to be helped.
OTOH, in the end, if I am killed because some jackass tried to confiscate my weapons, and my friend is alive and armed because he wasn't on a list, then perhaps he made the right decisions all along.
The day the federal government--men and women who are flesh and blood just like me--determines that I cannot be armed to protect myself and my family, that is the day I plan to tell each and every one of them that they can kiss my.
It's always a crap shoot when I type early in the morning or late at night because my internal filters are either too groggy or too tired to function well. But that's how I feel about it all. I refuse to live under oppression. I don't need Big Brother telling me when it's time for lunch or recess, nor do I need to raise my hand for permission to speak. I was born a free man, and I'll die a free man. Screw the government if they try to interfere. Yeh I said it--yeh I mean it. Our government makes me sick.
Maybe they need to be reminded what America is all about, or at least what we once were.
grady--a throwback to 1776, who should have gone to bed three hours ago
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Once again, an excellent post, grady!I could actually understand if someone refused to get a CCW permit because they didn't want to be on a list if confiscations begin. Such a strategy still carries risk, but many of us assume risk on some level anyway.
I also understand those who say they shouldn't need a permit because the 2A is all they need. Still carries risk, but that position I do understand.
I also understand someone carrying without a permit if some past misdeed prevents them from getting a permit: the old adage "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." If the choice is possibly a prison term or possibly being killed/your family being killed, I understand carrying anyway.
I do understand those situations, and I'm not opposed to them. IMO the government has no right to tell me I can't defend myself. And I will choose how I will defend myself. A blade isn't going to do me much good against multiple armed home invaders (and the criminals will always have guns). For some of you, maybe, but for me, the odds will not be in my favor.
What I don't understand is my acquaintance's naive belief that he will be shown mercy because supposedly he "didn't know the law."
When the time is right, I'll gently ask him if he is unable to get a permit due to some issue in his past. If that isn't the issue, I will try to learn more about his mindset, whether he indeed is trusting in the "naive card" or the "mercy card". I plan to print out a local CCW class info and give to him. Then I'll give him the printout of sentencing info for carrying illegally. Then I'll leave him alone and let him make his own decision.
Ultimately, we are all responsible for our own choices. I'll try to help him because I care about him, but in the end, I'll respect his right to make his own decisions.
We can help some people, but we cannot help those who refuse to be helped.
OTOH, in the end, if I am killed because some jackass tried to confiscate my weapons, and my friend is alive and armed because he wasn't on a list, then perhaps he made the right decisions all along.
The day the federal government--men and women who are flesh and blood just like me--determines that I cannot be armed to protect myself and my family, that is the day I plan to tell each and every one of them that they can kiss my
It's always a crap shoot when I type early in the morning or late at night because my internal filters are either too groggy or too tired to function well. But that's how I feel about it all. I refuse to live under oppression. I don't need Big Brother telling me when it's time for lunch or recess, nor do I need to raise my hand for permission to speak. I was born a free man, and I'll die a free man. Screw the government if they try to interfere. Yeh I said it--yeh I mean it. Our government makes me sick.
Maybe they need to be reminded what America is all about, or at least what we once were.
grady--a throwback to 1776, who should have gone to bed three hours ago
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I realize that I'm resurrecting a post from 2009, but it's an important issue, and there's not much discussion about this stuff out there on the internet. It's even more important THESE days, where multiple states are pushing for new laws allowing for citizens legally able to carry to be able to carry concealed without a permit.
While I don't condone illegal activity, as a normal, non-criminal dude, there is something all of you have to remember, if you can put aside your worship for the law for the sake of law:
Our right to carry shall not be infringed. Because of our negligence and laziness, we've already allowed 'them' to take away our ability to carry concealed without a permit, which should have never happened in the first place. It's unconstitutional to infringe upon that right, and unconstitutional laws must be challenged. Some would say that such laws are null and void, but the law still has the strength to enforce it anyway, regardless of whether it's right or wrong. So we have to deal with it until it's set right (if ever).
I tried to play by the rules and obtain a CHP here in Colorado. After jumping through some hoops because of some crap in my background, stuff that never should or would have disqualified me from the 'privilege' of carrying concealed with a government permission slip, our good sheriff denied me anyway. And never considered my appeals. And responded with an informal letter simply quoting a law that allows the sheriff to deny a permit for whatever reason he wants.
And recently, Colorado tried to pass a 'Constitutional Carry' bill just like Arizona, Montana, Vermont, Alaska, etc., but it was killed in the Senate by a kangaroo committee assigned by a damned Liberal Senate Leader designed to kill the bill.
So if I want to be able to protect myself, my family, and people around me, without the hassle of simply Open Carrying everywhere (which I can't do while working, when it's cold out, and in certain locales), I must resort to becoming a criminal.
Someone once said that the only way to control free men is to make them into criminals.
Grady, your friend is in the wrong in his approach. As many have pointed out, playing the 'ignorance of the law' card is no way to defend yourself when the chips come down. I am, however, comforted by the fact that so many people know other people that carry anyway, some no doubt because of being in similar situations that I'm in, despite such unconstitutional laws.
I must say, after trying the legal route, and supporting the legislative route, that I've toyed with the idea that the only way to defeat this anti-gun oppression in places (like here) where the legal approach has failed to reach justice, would be to carry illegally with the idea that if eventually 'getting caught', I, or someone else in the same shoes, could take the charges (in Colorado, a Class 2 Misdemeanor) to the Supreme Court in hopes of defeating a bad law. There has been a bit of Supreme Court action regarding gun rights lately, and it's a good time for it.
Of course, it's speculation (moderators), and I'm certainly not recommending illegal activity, or even conspiring. I've done no such thing. But as far as brainstorming goes, how else do we take back the rights that we've lost, if your particular state's legislature is populated by anti-constitutional statists?
Food for thought.
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He's not "ahead" of ANYBODY - He is using his fear to rationalize his actions
without consideration of the consequences.
And he's NOT IGNORANT - on the contrary he has made a CONSCIOUS DECISION
TO BREAK THE LAW in his own self interest.
I would just call him a FOOL.
More than that he is possibly a danger to those around him because if he
cares not about the law , he probably doesn't care about other peoples
rights or safety.
.
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-SIG , it's What's for Dinner-
know your rights!
http://www.handgunlaw.us
"If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
{Bernhard Goetz}
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Some people still believe the earth is flat too.
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