An acquaintance believes in carrying concealed... but without a permit - Page 6

An acquaintance believes in carrying concealed... but without a permit

This is a discussion on An acquaintance believes in carrying concealed... but without a permit within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by wjh2657 Tennessee has a really valid system of obtaining a permit, with a fair doctrine as to who can carry. Yet I ...

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Thread: An acquaintance believes in carrying concealed... but without a permit

  1. #76
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    Tennessee has a really valid system of obtaining a permit, with a fair doctrine as to who can carry. Yet I know for a fact that many people carry without a permit. Complicating matters is that TN has a law stating that a person can use a unlawful gun in self defense and still claim self defense. This isn't a bad law, it covers ad hoc situations where you may suddenly find a gun available to use to defend yourself. The problem is that people see this as license to break the law.

    You are still open to charges that you were unlawfully carrying a gun and civil lawyers can still use the trump card that you yourself were engaged in a criminal activity when it comes to claiming claiming tort.

    I carry with a HCP, because there are many laws stating that this is what I am supposed to do. I am a law abiding citizen. Many people today are starting to see themselves as heroes and "Super Patriots" when they break the law because their political party lost an election. I didn't vote for the current President but the majority of people in this country did, so he is the President and ditto for all of the other political leaders down to local level.

    We are breeding an atmosphere that it is somehow "good" to break the law. Contesting the law in courts and trying to legislate other laws is "good". Breaking the law is just plain bad and those who do it are criminals, no different than the "Zombies" they rant about.

    Carrying without a permit, if it is required by law in your state, is a criminal act plain and simple.
    You know, there are a lot of civil rights leaders and historically significant figures that purposely broke unjust laws. We now consider most of them to be heroes, not criminals. In fact, that's how a lot of laws were changed. Who's to say we wouldn't get results if every county jail in the country suddenly filled up with CCW violations that are all chanting the same thing? I'm not advocating this behavior, simply providing a little food for thought for all the people saying he's no different than a common criminal.

    That being said, I would get a copy of state law and show it to him. Print it out and physically give it to him. MAKE him read it. Offer to drive him to the SO or wherever it is he would have to apply, and help him with the paperwork. If at this point he refuses or admits to a reason he can't get one, then advise him of the consequences and leave it alone. It is his choice to make, not yours. If he chooses to carry illegally after being fully informed of the consequences, then he assumes the risks that go along with it.


  2. #77
    Member Array whodog's Avatar
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    I asked my LGS what happens to the papers that involve a new gun sale in NC. He said he keeps them, never sends them out. So, other than the sherrif's office knowing that I have permits to buy handguns, the gov't doesn't know what, or IF, I have a gun. It would take a lot of effort to track down the paperwork for all the new and used guns I have. So, in effect, noone, not even my LGS really knows what I have in terms of firearms. And, so, I don't have a CCW permit in NC. I may CC, or, I may not-- the gov't doesn't know--neither do you guys and girls. If I get caught, or not, I can handle a misdemeanor, because I am squeaky clean. And, yes, I do know the laws in NC concerning carrying. And, no, I am not a hero. I am just a citizen, trying to make me and mine safer w/o the gov't's help.

  3. #78
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    I was giving a ride to an acquaintance yesterday, and the subject of guns came up. Ummm, maybe it was because he moved a hat hear my console and uncovered my S&W auto. I knew this was a possibility, but I left it there intentionally for several reasons:
    1) to use if needed, and
    2) to let it serve as a conversation starter
    To his credit, he didn't bat an eye.

    Anyway, he eventually turned the conversation to concealed carry, and to my surprise, he stated he does carry. He mentioned several areas he frequents that if an active shooter starts shooting, police response wouldn't be in time to save the initial victims. So far so good.

    He says not only does he not believe we should trust others to protect us, but that they can't. He believes it's up to us to protect ourselves and our families. I'm in total agreement with him so far.

    Then he tells me he doesn't believe he should get a CCW permit because if he is involved in a shooting, having a permit will indicate he should have known all the laws, whereas if he doesn't have a permit, he can claim ignorance. He feels he will receive some mercy from the prosecuting attorney and jurors because not having a CCW permit will show he hadn't been trained in the law, whereas if he had a permit, that would be proof he had been exposed to the applicable gun laws and therefore would have been expected to follow them all.

    I tried to reason with him. I told him he would face charges for carrying illegally even if it was a clear self-defense shooting, but if he had a CCW permit, he would be in the clear. But he has it stuck in his mind that he can play the "ignorance" card, and it will work out better for him.

    So close and yet so far. He's far ahead of most of the people I run across concerning self-defense and preparedness. Yet because of this one issue, he risks a gun charge and possibly prison time, all because he believes he'll be cut some slack if people think he didn't know the law.

    I can't believe his ignorance. I'll try to work on him slowly since he rejects the truth given to him straight.

    I'm in a little bit of shock that someone could be so ignorant. I'm not sure of the laws here for carrying concealed without a CCW, as that cannot apply to me, but I'm guessing it could carry prison time.

    A little background on this guy (not that it matters): married, been in the workforce for several years, going back to school for an advanced degree, homeowner, and otherwise a respectable member of society.

    I just have to shake my head every time I think about his belief. I say the law will see him as just another thug carrying a gun illegally.

    Now, I don't believe race matters on this issue, but just to include the details, this guy is white, and most of the county officials are white also. But that won't matter a bit. I've observed the prosecuting attorney for years. He's a great guy, and he doesn't cut criminals any slack, especially not over the color of their skin. If this acquaintance of mine is ever arrested on a gun charge, especially after a shooting, he won't be receiving any favoritism from the prosecuting attorney, and IMO probably not from the jurors either.

    This acquaintance isn't related to any county officials or LEOs, nor does he have any special influence in the area such as a long-term family presence. He's just out there on his own, believing it is better to be totally under the radar by not having an official record of him being trained and carrying, which he would have if he got a CCW permit.

    I'm perplexed someone otherwise so responsible could be so irresponsible on such a weighty issue. I know gangsters routinely do this, but this guy is middle America. I don't get it.
    I don't believe in stopping for red lights. Unfortunately the police DO.

  4. #79
    Senior Member Array Lewis128's Avatar
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    To the OP, I think it's pretty unanimous. Sooner or later, there's a very real possibility your friend will end up in prison.

  5. #80
    Member Array lambo969's Avatar
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    I hope you can get him straightened out soon for his own sake. This is not a good philosophy to carry around (no pun intended).

  6. #81
    Member Array MtflyerHK's Avatar
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    Check out the latest Combat Handguns

    Massad Ayoob just wrote an article on the subject in Combat Handguns about carrying without a permit. He details 5 cases where someone was involved in a legitimate self defense shooting and in most cases ended up with a felony on their record, jail time etc. when they could have gotten permits for very little time and money, been aquitted of everything and walked free. Now they have NO firearms rights. Being paranoid about confiscation is rediculous. They can come to my door but you have a lot of other rights too to prevent illegal search and sizure. They can take the first few, but the last they're going to get from my cold hands if it came to that. And I will never live in a state that will come to that. The article is quite good and a real eye opener to be educated on your local gun laws. Prosecuters will not bend on a felony even if you had every right to use a gun in self defense. Get the permit.

    AVOIDABLE MISTAKES
    Posted by Massad Ayoob. Author Archive »

    Foolish ideological stands that can sink you—five cases profile why CCW legality is non-negotiable!

  7. #82
    Member Array MtflyerHK's Avatar
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    ooghost1oo - I suggest you lawyer up and fight the denial. If your personal protection and freedom is important, do that. You could change things for the better for a lot of good folks in Colorado, or educate that Sheriff. Another poster just did that in Virginia and won. If you're not willing to do that then leave colorado for a shall issue state or don't carry. Pure and simple. I do belive in constitutional carry but I'm not going to risk a felony to prove that it "should" be that way - because currently most laws and states say it isn't so. I'd say your chances of getting a felony for having a concealed weapon without a permit are much higher than having to use a gun to defend your life. Just don't go there unless you have the legal "permission" to do so. No matter how dumb or unjust it sounds. The alternative is worse.

  8. #83
    Member Array rellimpank's Avatar
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    --excellent post--Ayoob has a good piece on this in the June issue of <i>Combat Handguns</i>---

  9. #84
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    As Old Grunt mentioned, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Claiming ignorance isn't going to get him anywhere, and the lack of a carry permit is going to get him in big trouble if the gun is ever discovered.
    +1

    Even if he never has to use the gun in SD, if he gets made and the police respond to a MWAG call, he is in big trouble once hey find out he doesn't have a permit.

    There may be a SLIGHT chance that a DA may look at an actual self defense shooting as him not having a permit being the "lesser of two evils" and not charge him but it's pretty slim.
    Wasn't there a scenario posted here at DC just a week or so ago where the gun owner went a little to far but got off without a charge even though most here thought he was over the line?
    I can't find the thread but I thought it was recent.

    I agree he really needs to stop carrying until he gets his permit. The risk of a felony gun charge is not worth it.

  10. #85
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    Someone once said that the only way to control free men is to make them into criminals.

    I must say, after trying the legal route, and supporting the legislative route, that I've toyed with the idea that the only way to defeat this anti-gun oppression in places (like here) where the legal approach has failed to reach justice, would be to carry illegally with the idea that if eventually 'getting caught', I, or someone else in the same shoes, could take the charges (in Colorado, a Class 2 Misdemeanor) to the Supreme Court in hopes of defeating a bad law. There has been a bit of Supreme Court action regarding gun rights lately, and it's a good time for it.
    Unless Obama manges to get one more anti-gun justice appointed while your waiting for your trial to make it to the Supreme Court.

  11. #86
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    Carrying without a permit is like carrying without a holster. Sooner or later bad things are going to happen.

    Take the legal recourse to obtain your permit. The sheriff does not make the final decision the judge does.
    Member:USCCA, NRA, GOA, WVCDL
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  12. #87
    Senior Member Array Chevyguy85's Avatar
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    sadly I have a co-worker that doesn't think it's worth paying the $112 + whatever the class cost is to get the permit. He carries every now and then w/o it, not often, but still does it. His justification is that he never plans on using it but if he does he'll worry about the legalities afterwords if he's still alive. I just don't get people sometimes.

  13. #88
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLC View Post
    you friend is going to help a DA improve his felony conviction record someday and he'll carry that conviction the rest of his life. silly, absolutely silly and bordering on the edge of stupid.
    Bordering? I'd say he has not only crossed the border into stupid but has actually made it all the way to the middle of the state.

  14. #89
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    I can't count the number of times I saw tough talking guys cry like little girls inside the courtroom.

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