Does he understand the word "felony"?
This is a discussion on An acquaintance believes in carrying concealed... but without a permit within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was giving a ride to an acquaintance yesterday, and the subject of guns came up. Ummm, maybe it was because he moved a hat ...
I was giving a ride to an acquaintance yesterday, and the subject of guns came up. Ummm, maybe it was because he moved a hat hear my console and uncovered my S&W auto. I knew this was a possibility, but I left it there intentionally for several reasons:
1) to use if needed, and
2) to let it serve as a conversation starter
To his credit, he didn't bat an eye.
Anyway, he eventually turned the conversation to concealed carry, and to my surprise, he stated he does carry. He mentioned several areas he frequents that if an active shooter starts shooting, police response wouldn't be in time to save the initial victims. So far so good.
He says not only does he not believe we should trust others to protect us, but that they can't. He believes it's up to us to protect ourselves and our families. I'm in total agreement with him so far.
Then he tells me he doesn't believe he should get a CCW permit because if he is involved in a shooting, having a permit will indicate he should have known all the laws, whereas if he doesn't have a permit, he can claim ignorance. He feels he will receive some mercy from the prosecuting attorney and jurors because not having a CCW permit will show he hadn't been trained in the law, whereas if he had a permit, that would be proof he had been exposed to the applicable gun laws and therefore would have been expected to follow them all.
I tried to reason with him. I told him he would face charges for carrying illegally even if it was a clear self-defense shooting, but if he had a CCW permit, he would be in the clear. But he has it stuck in his mind that he can play the "ignorance" card, and it will work out better for him.
So close and yet so far. He's far ahead of most of the people I run across concerning self-defense and preparedness. Yet because of this one issue, he risks a gun charge and possibly prison time, all because he believes he'll be cut some slack if people think he didn't know the law.
I can't believe his ignorance. I'll try to work on him slowly since he rejects the truth given to him straight.
I'm in a little bit of shock that someone could be so ignorant. I'm not sure of the laws here for carrying concealed without a CCW, as that cannot apply to me, but I'm guessing it could carry prison time.
A little background on this guy (not that it matters): married, been in the workforce for several years, going back to school for an advanced degree, homeowner, and otherwise a respectable member of society.
I just have to shake my head every time I think about his belief. I say the law will see him as just another thug carrying a gun illegally.
Now, I don't believe race matters on this issue, but just to include the details, this guy is white, and most of the county officials are white also. But that won't matter a bit. I've observed the prosecuting attorney for years. He's a great guy, and he doesn't cut criminals any slack, especially not over the color of their skin. If this acquaintance of mine is ever arrested on a gun charge, especially after a shooting, he won't be receiving any favoritism from the prosecuting attorney, and IMO probably not from the jurors either.
This acquaintance isn't related to any county officials or LEOs, nor does he have any special influence in the area such as a long-term family presence. He's just out there on his own, believing it is better to be totally under the radar by not having an official record of him being trained and carrying, which he would have if he got a CCW permit.
I'm perplexed someone otherwise so responsible could be so irresponsible on such a weighty issue. I know gangsters routinely do this, but this guy is middle America. I don't get it.
Does he understand the word "felony"?
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
I have a lady friend who carrys and will not get a permit. She says with a permit, the "FEDs" know who to confiscate from first..and she is right.
"Brains before Bullets"
as a retired LEO..he's asking for trouble. I appreciate his knowledge and proactive attitude toward self-defense ,but believe me courts don't look at things like he does(think: "ignorance of the law is no excuse"),especially if you reside in a state that makes getting a CCW fairly easy. Tell him to WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE ! Recommend he read some of Massad Ayoob work with the Lethal Force Institute. He NEEDS to be on the SMART side of this issue! GOOD LUCK !
"We deal in lead friend">Steve McQueen The Magnificent Seven
82d Abn(1983-86)OIF 2007-08
Glock 19&26/ Colt Gov't & OM/Ruger SP101
Retired NYS LEO / NRA Life Member
"no kidding,gun slinging,spurs hitting the floor"
Well, he's got a point...they can't take away his permit.
I'd keep working on him, sounds like he's worth the attempt.
Proverbs 27:12 says: The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
I would do a search for cases that were lost after claiming ignorance of the law but I don't think my computer could handle such a large number. Keep riding him, Grady. I'm sure you can "break" him of his ignorance!
"I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything!" Bart Simpson
That says it all right there. Ridiculous that someone would think the 'ignorance' card would work---especially in a shooting situation outside of his residence??? That's insane!!! If he were ever involved in a shooting without a permit and said he didn't know better he would be a poster child for the Brady campaign and be all over the mainstream media giving a horrible name to those who actually give a **** about the law and went through the steps and processes to carry legally. I'm not going to lie, this makes me upset.I can't believe his ignorance. I'll try to work on him slowly since he rejects the truth given to him straight.
A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace. ---James Madison, The Federalist Papers
you friend is going to help a DA improve his felony conviction record someday and he'll carry that conviction the rest of his life. silly, absolutely silly and bordering on the edge of stupid.
Not to disparage the guy but possibly he can't get a ccw for some reason but wants to protect himself. For sure I'm not condoning it. If he is not eligible he should work to rehabilitate his situation. If it is just ignorance maybe you can sway him Grady. BTW,you didn't mentioned if you and he discussed this board as a possible education point, but it may provide him some much needed info.
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
A gun in the hand is a million times more valuable than a cop on the phone!
FL Concealed Weapon or Firearm Program
As Old Grunt mentioned, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Claiming ignorance isn't going to get him anywhere, and the lack of a carry permit is going to get him in big trouble if the gun is ever discovered.
I have a coworker who is the same way. He carries a Keltec in his pocket everywhere he goes-EVERYWHERE. He says that it's his right (which it is) and that he refuses to let the government control him.
I've tried to explain to him that while I agree with him in theory, me being in prison for breaking the law is going to do nothing to protect my family. He has a family also, and I'ved tried to use that fact to persuade him.
It's sad. He's never been in trouble, is financially able and yet refuses to spend the hour and less than $50 it takes to get a License in Georgia.
Balance that with my coworker who has a GFL and refuses to carry as it's too much trouble and sometimes I just want to scream.
eh not a good idea, if something were to happen he would be a bad representative for those who carry and it would help to further push the movement against the right to carry
I could name 4 people that I know that right now have a handgun either on them or in their vehicle with no license to carry concealed. No matter what you tell them they won't listen. Some people are hard headed and either don't understand the consequences or just don't care (at least until they get busted).
I guess I would want to check on one aspect of his claim. Does he in fact carry on his person, or is he keeping the gun in his car.
I'm not 100% on MO law, but seem to recall it is OK in the car?
So, it is possible your friend is not actually violating the law; or that he is exaggerating what he actually does.
If he indeed carries concealed without a permit, then he is certainly being foolish and living dangerously, and risking a great deal for his stubbornness. If he can not legally get a license, he is risking all that much more --like a second conviction.
We humans all (except my wife) do stupid things out of ignorance, foolishness, stubbornness, a little adrenalin high for doing what we shouldn't. All you can do is what you have done. Point out the error and hope that once he sleeps on it, he will change his mind. You might even find out 6 months from now that he in fact went out and got a license and wants to tell you about it.
It is not like he didn't know better, he did. He just thought it wasn't a big deal and he wouldn't get caught. (Same guy once did something else wrong for the same reason, and nearly lost his job/nearly got prosecuted.) That's just the way some folks are.