Military Use of Force Class..

Military Use of Force Class..

This is a discussion on Military Use of Force Class.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So I think a little background would work........I'm a staff sergeant in the Air Force and I recently had to take a combat skills class ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Patches25's Avatar
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    Military Use of Force Class..

    So I think a little background would work........I'm a staff sergeant in the Air Force and I recently had to take a combat skills class this week.

    One of the things they taught us was the Use of Force. I was all ears for this training because of the fact that I carry daily and can always use more information. A couple of things they taught us was how far do you let a man/women get to you with a knife (and intent to harm you or someone else). The answer was 21 feet, now that is just an average distance used by many forms of law enforcement.

    They also gave us many scenarios and were asking us if the amount of force, whether it is a Tazer or a gun, was the proper amount of force. The bottom line to all the videos was that it is easy to have 20/20 hindsight when watching it on TV. They only have seconds to react. Now if you have to ask who they are, you only have to look up videos of police or soldiers.

    They taught us only the basic tactics in the field because we are the Air Force and we just don't do that sort of work. But the fact is, the world is changing and the armed forces is changing.


    I just thought I would talk about it a little bit. If you or anyone reading this has any questions please feel free to ask.

    Thanks
    "I think that people want peace so much that one of these days government had better get out of their way and let them have it."

    Dwight D. Eisenhower


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    Senior Member Array BradyM77's Avatar
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    Here's a link about the 21ft "danger zone" originally tested by Dennis Tueller. Now called the Tueller Drill
    Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything!" Bart Simpson

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    Member Array Patches25's Avatar
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    Yeah.....Thanks for that. They never gave us this reference they just told us. I agree with it though. There are always different circumstances though and trying to figure that stuff out instantly must be unimaginably hard to do.
    "I think that people want peace so much that one of these days government had better get out of their way and let them have it."

    Dwight D. Eisenhower

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    I've been through that class three times now in the Navy, in various forms. With mine it was coupled to a forced entry tactics training, among other things. We also played out the Tueller drill with rubber edged knives, and simunition weapons. I 'died' four times, that 21' is a lot less distance than it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HT1911 View Post
    I've been through that class three times now in the Navy, in various forms. With mine it was coupled to a forced entry tactics training, among other things. We also played out the Tueller drill with rubber edged knives, and simunition weapons. I 'died' four times, that 21' is a lot less distance than it seems.
    Not only that but the Tueller drill requires the knife actor to have response time to the Go signal from a third party as does the shooter. So the knife actor loses some of the same time in recognition of the signal and reaction to the signal as does the shooter. [In any case, that was the drill I was trained with.]

    In many real life situations the knife actor is already in motion, the shooter has to recognize the danger, and react while the knife guy is already up to speed.

    Recognize, and reaction is always slower than action.

    IMHO -- If you modify the Tueller drill to have the knife guy initiate the action (w/ some potential false starts scenarios counting against the shooter, if she/he shoots in a non-attack) and if the shooter has to react to the knife actor's actual threat, the knife actor will nearly always win.

    Anyone ever run the drill this way?
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    Senior Member Array WC145's Avatar
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    The "21ft rule" has been extended to 30ft by most agencies as they've found those using security holsters to be slower on the draw. Of course, the obvious lesson is to never underestimate the speed or ferocity of a determined assailant or the damage that can be done in just seconds regardless of the weapon in hand.


    Patches25-
    What's your job in the USAF? I was a Security Specialist in the early 80's, back then there was no Tueller drill and even for us the weapons/use of force training was pretty elementary. These days the training has become much more thorough and sophisticated, especially for the Airmen that actually do have frontline combat roles (there are some in the USAF, though they are few and far between). My son is a TACP in the 20th ASOS, they're attached to the Army's 10th Mountain Division at Ft. Drum, NY. The TACPs are on the ground living, eating, sleeping, and fighting with the Army every day. Their primary job is to support the Army with CAS.

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    Sad fact is that most of the time, if there's isn't a good distance between you and the assailant, you are going to be stabbed/cut in the encounter...

    I had a lot of hand-to-hand combat training, special schools, SERE school and high-risk personnel school amongst others in the Marine's, and a good portion of my friends were Force Recon Marine's...

    Personally, if I have time to react and pull on a assailant with a weapon, they only have 1 chance...if I tell them to drop the knife and get down face first with arms extended at gunpoint until the LEO arrives, they had better do it. If I see ANY further aggressive action on their part, I will fire to kill....I will take my chances with the prosecuter and make my case as feeling threatened with imminent death or bodily injury, period.
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    Member Array Uechi's Avatar
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    21 feet sounds like a lot, but it is only seven paces in 1.5 seconds that's a normal everyday out of shape smo. Add someone who is athletic and you are going to be stabbed or sliced before you know it. Even 30 feet ain't much. Stay aware and stay safe.

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    Member Array Spike32's Avatar
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    The 21 foot rule is way outdated. I recently took a training course whereupon the instructor demonstrated how he could attack and disable (read: kill) you with a knife from 21 feet before the average person could draw and shoot. It was certainly eye-opening! We worked a long time on drawing and firing to defeat such an attack, and it was much harder than you would think to master. My personal defensive radius is now a minimum of 30 feet at least, and preferably much further.
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    New Member Array HT1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Not only that but the Tueller drill requires the knife actor to have response time to the Go signal from a third party as does the shooter. So the knife actor loses some of the same time in recognition of the signal and reaction to the signal as does the shooter. [In any case, that was the drill I was trained with.]

    In many real life situations the knife actor is already in motion, the shooter has to recognize the danger, and react while the knife guy is already up to speed.

    Recognize, and reaction is always slower than action.

    IMHO -- If you modify the Tueller drill to have the knife guy initiate the action (w/ some potential false starts scenarios counting against the shooter, if she/he shoots in a non-attack) and if the shooter has to react to the knife actor's actual threat, the knife actor will nearly always win.

    Anyone ever run the drill this way?
    The way we ran it, the knife actor would basically get a "go" signal and then it was up to him/her when they wanted to begin the attack. It was tense as all get out, and really got you feeling as if you were about to be attacked by a real BG. I thought it was a very good, eye opening drill.

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