Mutually Assured Destruction - Supporting Campus CCW

This is a discussion on Mutually Assured Destruction - Supporting Campus CCW within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; from The Underground Independent Student Publication Missouri State University Why I support concealed carry (on campus and otherwise) Zach Becker Editor-in-Chief Mutually assured destruction. Thatís ...

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Thread: Mutually Assured Destruction - Supporting Campus CCW

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    Mutually Assured Destruction - Supporting Campus CCW

    from The Underground
    Independent Student Publication
    Missouri State University

    Why I support concealed carry (on campus and otherwise)

    Zach Becker
    Editor-in-Chief


    Mutually assured destruction.

    Thatís the best way I can sum up why I support the legal right to carry concealed firearms, both on campus and otherwise.

    Remember the Cold War? We had two super powers, vying for power and supremacy, both with an arsenal of nuclear warheads capable of destroying the world several times over. What stopped each of them from blowing the other to kingdom come? Mutually assured destruction.

    Have you ever seen the classic 1980ís movie war games? The only way to win the game thermonuclear war is not to play the game at all.

    Itís pretty simple psychology and is valid at an interpersonal level as well. Really, who is going to rob a store if they think the clerk, as well as the other patrons, may be packing heat? It changes the whole risk-reward equation for a lot of crimes.

    Sure, it is always best to call 911 and wait for the police to diffuse a situation, but sometimes that is not possible. Quick action can save lives.

    It is well-known that if a person wants a gun, he or she can get one easily through various channels, some legal, some not. If a criminal wants to carry a concealed weapon, no little sign on the door or outside of campus banning the practice of concealed carry is going to deter them. But law-abiding citizens will respect those regulations.

    Suddenly, in areas where concealed carry is banned, criminals only have to fear deadly repercussions from other criminals. All the law abiding citizens are now just blanks. So where do you think a criminal is more likely to strike? An area that allows legal concealed carry or one that bans the practice?

    A lot of debate has been going on about whether the government should allow concealed firearms at the Missouri State University and other college campuses. Some students argue that allowing deadly weapons on campus will make the school a more dangerous place. But what about the thousands of deadly weapons already here (and out in the open)? Seriously, what is more dangerous than a raved lunatic in a motor vehicle? Road rage happens. Maybe we should ban cars? Or sharpened pencils (those can hurt)? Really, Iíd rather that people not have guns. But we donít live in a perfect world and Iím a realist.

    A drivers license is fairly simple to obtain, but not so with a CCW permit. An individual must be at least 23-years-old, have completed a training program and be fingerprinted at the Sheriffís office.

    Much of the debate has focused on how concealed carry may have stifled a campus massacre like the one at Virginia Tech. While I think it may have made some difference in that situation, these incidents are few and far between. Letís look at a more likely scenario. Burglary. Assault. Rape. From 2005-to-2007, MSU police reported 144 robberies on campus, 8 cases of aggravated assault and 18 incidents of forcible sex offenses. Shouldnít students be allowed to defend themselves?

    While I donít know if Iíd carry a gun myself, if my wife was out on campus after dark for classes, Iíd feel a heck of a lot safer if she was carrying a concealed weapon. What rapist is going to attack a women if thereís a possibility he gets his dick blown off? If it happens a few times, I bet potential campus rapists might think twice.

    Mutually assured destruction. You hurt me and Iíll hurt you. I wish this type of logic wasnít needed in the world. Maybe someday it wonít. But for now, we should allow concealed carry of weapons in most public places, including campus. It could save lives.

    Read and comment on the source's website here.

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    Good read. I agree as, I'm sure, do most of us here. Why are adult students and educators, not to mention all the other people who work on university campuses, less deserving of the ability to self-defense? I've never understood that.

    The author does bring up a point that does not get alot of attention though.

    In the case of Virginia Tech and other multiple victim incidents, how effective is a single armed citizen? A BG armed with multiple weapons on a rampage is almost alway going to be mentally unstable. They will almost always have the advantage of surprise. One person standing up to that kind of craziness with a handgun is probably going to be injured or killed as well as (hopefully) the BG. This is something I always think about when this subject comes up.

    Am I willing to die for the safety of strangers? What if the BG is shooting up the room across the hall and not mine? For those of us that have never been in combat this is a legitimate question we all need to think about. Courage is an easy thing to talk about on forums and with buddys at the range, but reality is that most people can't know how they will react until it happens to them. My way of thinking is the better I mentally and emotionally "train" myself, the less time it will take in a SHTF situation.

    Just my thoughts.
    "Mind own business"
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    I knew the mother of someone killed in a campus shooting. Just in the wrong place when a disgruntled graduated student went after the major professor.

    I'm conflicted about this issue. There are lots of very emotional interactions between students and faculty and among students (bad dates, stalking etc.).

    I honestly don't know which way is going to give better (lower casualty rates) results.

    This is one area where states can individually experiments, and then after about a decade we'd have more info to go on.

    I do know that here the students were polled, and 2/3 said they did not want guns on campus.

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    I have no issue with CC on campus. As with anything worth persuing, the right education makes all the difference. This is the same as with CCW. I would no sooner gave the keys to my car to an untrained driver than to give a CC permit to an untrained gun owner. I think that if colleges start to allow CC on campus, it is well within their rights to make sure that the CC carrier is trained to do so, even if it over and above the State CC requirements.

    That being said, CC on campus would start to deter some of the BG from considering a campus crowd an easy target. But certainly not all of them.
    2A is not negotiable

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner71 View Post
    What if the BG is shooting up the room across the hall and not mine?
    This is a valid point, but.......

    If you are in the room the shooter first opens up in, you may not have much chance to react (as flawed as the ABC experiment was, the out come was plausible).

    If the shooter is in the room across the hall, where is he going next? If I recall the VA Tech shooter was moving from room to room. In this case you have some type of warning, and can call 911, and prepare for him as he enters your room, your odds go way up. If you have no weapon, I hope you are on the first floor and the windows in the room open easily.

    Just a couple of thoughts......
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I do know that here the students were polled, and 2/3 said they did not want guns on campus.
    Yea, but I think it would be very easy to get the same breakdown in any situation. When polled 2/3's would say they don't want guns in churches, parks, malls, restaurants, malls, etc......

    It's a tough debate and a slippery slope. An adult should be able to legally defend themselves anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I do know that here the students were polled, and 2/3 said they did not want guns on campus.
    If those 2/3 of students actually believe that there are not already guns on their campus, they are out of touch with reality.

    Hopyard, I can understand your reluctance to allow students to carry. Some students can be rather rash at times, but is this any different than non-student adults? I would also say though, that a student who has taken the time to obtain a CWP probably has a bit more foresight (and hopefully self control) than your average student.
    When in doubt empty the magazine.

    "There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy." - George Washington

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    It isn't just the students

    Quote Originally Posted by MiloSC View Post
    If those 2/3 of students actually believe that there are not already guns on their campus, they are out of touch with reality.

    Hopyard, I can understand your reluctance to allow students to carry. .
    Uh, it isn't just the students. Some of the faculty and staff are not playing with a full dozen either, and sometimes they act in ways that would provoke bad responses from students, only because ...well some people are stupid and will misuse power and authority.


    What I think should happen is an experiment. Let some schools (states) give it a try and let's look at results, at incidents, a few years down the road.

    And, I guess this is pretty much what is going to slowly happen now.

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    Great article. The kid makes a lot of great points, and this is something that should be plastered on every Anti-gun American's front door.

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    I totally agree with the article and whats even better is I have the name for my next band....

    M.A.D.
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    What I think should happen is an experiment. Let some schools (states) give it a try and let's look at results, at incidents, a few years down the road.

    And, I guess this is pretty much what is going to slowly happen now.


    Well to this I have to say that it is already happening in Utah, and other colleges around the nation.(
    Persons possessing a Utah concealed firearm permit may conceal their firearm on the premises of an educational institution such as a public college or university. )

    So it has already begun, and they do not have the crimes that other colleges have. And to what has been said about professors or students not having a full dozen in the head, that is why the state of Texas does a very extensive background/mental check when a person gets their CHL. This makes sure crazy people do not have guns. Not like they can't get them anyway, but that is beside the point.

    I think concealed carry on campus is a great idea, we need to be able to protect ourselves at school just like when we are on the streets.

    Here is a link to all the common arguements that people have, and their answers.
    Students for Concealed Carry on Campus - ConcealedCampus.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'm conflicted about this issue. There are lots of very emotional interactions between students and faculty and among students (bad dates, stalking etc.).
    While I understand your point, I think we need to stop sending mixed messages.

    At some point, you are a full fledged legal citizen/adult. At that point you should have both the privileges of adulthood/citizenship and the responsibilities.

    Can everyone handle it? Of course not. Some people will of course kill others while driving under the influence and all sorts of other things.

    It is the parents job to prepare them the best they can, but at some point the responsibility must shift to them.

    Personally, I'd rather live in a more dangerous society but to be free, than have others decide who can do what.

    And don't forget, the stalkees in that equation are equally deserving of their right to protect themselves.

    And FWIW, I think the drinking age, the age of legal adulthood and the age to join military should all be the same.

    -john

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    It depends on from where you are looking

    Quote Originally Posted by bzdog View Post
    While I understand your point, I think we need to stop sending mixed messages.


    And FWIW, I think the drinking age, the age of legal adulthood and the age to join military should all be the same.

    -john
    It really depends on from which direction you are looking. If you are an old goat like me, anyone under 45 is suspect.

    As for the military equivalent issue, I want it known that I oppose conscription or enlistment for anyone under the age of 40. No exceptions. It is immoral to send our children to war. If we want to fight we should do it ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'm conflicted about this issue. There are lots of very emotional interactions between students and faculty and among students (bad dates, stalking etc.).

    I honestly don't know which way is going to give better (lower casualty rates) results.

    This is one area where states can individually experiments, and then after about a decade we'd have more info to go on.

    I do know that here the students were polled, and 2/3 said they did not want guns on campus.
    so what about these same students walking among people at walmart, resturants, malls, etc that are carrying

    I'm not conflicted....my wife is a college professor and has her CHL...and she wants to carry, when I was as student there are times I wished I'd been carrying, before I became LEO it really ticked me off that I had to disarm and wasn't trusted as a CHL enough to enter a college building or my son's school armed

    IMO Texas CHLs should be able to carry on campus....period
    CHL stops attacker after he shoots 5 people
    CHL stops attacker after shooting 1 person and CHL gets shot
    CHL can't be armed due to law and attacker shoots 30 people
    I know which option I'd pick

    IMO we don't need states to experiment to get more data....we already have that data in Texas....its called crime rates and rate of CHLs committing crimes all broken down by demographics, etc,
    all a ten year study would do is give us 10 more years of not having the right to protect ourselves
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner71 View Post
    In the case of Virginia Tech and other multiple victim incidents, how effective is a single armed citizen? A BG armed with multiple weapons on a rampage is almost alway going to be mentally unstable. They will almost always have the advantage of surprise. One person standing up to that kind of craziness with a handgun is probably going to be injured or killed as well as (hopefully) the BG. This is something I always think about when this subject comes up.

    Am I willing to die for the safety of strangers? What if the BG is shooting up the room across the hall and not mine? For those of us that have never been in combat this is a legitimate question we all need to think about. Courage is an easy thing to talk about on forums and with buddys at the range, but reality is that most people can't know how they will react until it happens to them. My way of thinking is the better I mentally and emotionally "train" myself, the less time it will take in a SHTF situation.

    Just my thoughts.
    As I understand it the physcological profiles done on these shooters shows that most if not all of them expect to be killed during their spree. There is evidence to support the position that all that is really needed to stop them is a credible threat, as in armed resistance. This part of the reasoning behind the change in tactics in a lot of jurisdictions. Instead of securing a perimeter and waiting for a full SWAT team, in many jurisdictions you will have single officers or teams as small as two officers going in immediately. If the BG gets scared and blows his brains out before an officer can get there to do it, who is going to complain? If I should find myself in a situation where I have to engage an active shooter, it certainly wont break my heart if he deprives me of the opportunity to punch his ticket. I would probably get over that faster than I would if I had to actually kill him myself.
    As far as dying for strangers goes, I think the more appropriate question is are you willing to kill for strangers? If you are not willing to kill for stangers, you very well may end up dying. Doesn't really matter who it's "for" in the grand scheme of things. Your still just as dead.

    As far as the multiple weapons and the element of surprise goes, I wouldn't concern myself about that. How many weapons can you accurately fire at one time? As far as surprise, the BG gives that up with his first shot. Now surprise is on your side! Unless of course somehow the BG knows you are armed!
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

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