Gay Marriage, CCW permits - Page 2

Gay Marriage, CCW permits

This is a discussion on Gay Marriage, CCW permits within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by PM Along with the gay marriage folks hace better lobbist, better lawyers and deep pockets!! Oh, I don't know, the NRA's pockets ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array highvoltage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PM View Post
    Along with the gay marriage folks hace better lobbist, better lawyers and deep pockets!!
    Oh, I don't know, the NRA's pockets are pretty deep. I think it's just that anti's have more of an objection to guns than other things.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array preachertim's Avatar
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    Agree! I wonder these things myself!
    Why Would A Preacher ever need a Gun? Its Not for the Sheep , its for the Wolves!

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  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    The only people who are allowed to be descrimminated against are the white, christian conservative breed of men.
    I agree 100%.
    Especially if they are gun owners and supporters of the RKBA.
    Jerry

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Gay marriage is irrelevant to the question at hand. The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) establishes a federal minimum standard definition of 'marriage', meaning States are not required to recognize out-of-state marriages that do not meet that standard (which happens to include the requirement of one man, one woman).

    The issue with national reciprocity is that, since there are no Federal standards, carry licenses should be nationally recognized, so why aren't they?

    Here's my take. I may be wrong on some of my assumptions here, and I am happy to be corrected.

    Carrying a weapon is something that was not governed by licenses until fairly recently. In ye olden days, you just carried a weapon...except where it was prohibited by local ordinance. (Remember, the Gunfight at the OK Corral was about the Clanton guns possessing guns in the town in defiance of the local law). Therefore, there was no Act of any given State to be recognized by any other State.

    So, with the advent of 'permits' to carry, the implementation of Full Faith and Credit lags behind. It is not aided by the fact the Supreme Court in that same time period is the mostly 'progressive' post-FDR court. The 2A crowd has been focused on right-to-carry on a per-State basis, therefore I doubt there have suits to force recognition of out-of-State permits.

    An additional problem is that, while all driver's licenses basically refer to the same actions (operating a motor vehicle), not all carry permits are created equally---you have permits to carry concealed revolvers; permits to carry concealed pistols; permits to carry concealed firearms; permits to carry concealed weapons; permits to carry weapons (open or concealed); permits to carry firearms (open or concealed); and so forth...

    Therefore not only is the whole firearms permit a recent thing, but there is a patchwork of various permit types to be considered. When individual States get together to cut reciprocity deals, they do it by looking only at the concealed firearm part of these licenses. That's harder to deal with in a general Full Faith sense, I think.

    Question for the peanut gallery: if you have a Texas license to carry a revolver (but not an auto), and you have reciprocity in a State that does not differentiate between revolver and auto, can you carry an auto in that State on your revolver license? Does a non-Texan have to choose between revolver and auto to carry on a reciprocity agreement in Texas...?
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  5. #20
    Member Array Akross's Avatar
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    I don't all of you crazy gun nuts coming into my state and killing all of the innocent people. Running around trying to be heroes and shooting little old ladies and puppies because you see them as threats.

    /sarcasm

    Seriously though I think it is about time to get some sort of standard so I can go to New York (about 1:30 away) and go shopping and bring my concealed carry weapon with me. Even if these states don't allow full reciprocity from other states they should at least allow 24-48 grace periods for travelers and visitors.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array highvoltage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    .....Carrying a weapon is something that was not governed by licenses until fairly recently. In ye olden days, you just carried a weapon...except where it was prohibited by local ordinance. (Remember, the Gunfight at the OK Corral was about the Clanton guns possessing guns in the town in defiance of the local law)........
    Hence, that prohibition was one of the first carry laws put into effect, even though it was local and not state.

    And, it wasn't so recent, we're talking late 1800's here. So, prohibition has been around a long time, and has only been escalating, until recently when most states decided to issue permits on a "shall issue" basis.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array DaRedneck's Avatar
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    I guess it is because all the states are "supposed" to be sovereign.
    "He who does not punish evil commands it to be done." - Leonardo da Vinci

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array LeCalsey's Avatar
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    I personally think that it is done deliberately on the Federal level to discourage CC in general. If the Fed mandated full 2A reciprocity, and forced the States to accept it, tons of citizens would jump on the wagon. With the process (We have all gon through) being so different, time consuming, and at time difficult, it discourages most of the SHEEP from straying.

    Keep in mind, our Fed Govt wants DumbMasses to vote and pay taxes and thats about it. If they streamlines the CC process, it presents a threat to their power and as we all know, the Fed loved the power it holds and relinquishes it reluctantly. The Fed WANTS you to believe that 2A is a privelage and not a right at all.
    2A is not negotiable

  9. #24
    Member Array 500Mag's Avatar
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    I think a simplified explanation is found in the The Effects Clause (Art IV, § 1) which grants Congress the authority to "prescribe the manner in which such acts, records and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof." as it pertains to the Full Faith and Credit Clause. So to date Congress hasn't stuck its nose in the issue one way or another.

    Somewhere along the line Congress probably said all states must recognize DL's. But they can also go the other way such as with DOMA which says states do Not have to recognize same-sex marriages. Any inaction (such as carry permits) is essentially the same thing, states don't have to recognize each other's permits but they can.
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  10. #25
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    First off, there is nothing dumb about being a truck driver. Heck, when I saw my son’s Hazmat book and his convoluted logbook, I was amazed as to its complexity.

    Anyway, the whole conceal carry reciprocal agreement thing’ is unfair and much more complicated. As long as we allow corruption in our government, we’ll likely never see the second amendment as it was originally intended. The best thing’ we can do, is to vote congressmen and senators out of office who support gun control.
    Regards,
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highvoltage View Post
    And, it wasn't so recent, we're talking late 1800's here. So, prohibition has been around a long time, and has only been escalating, until recently when most states decided to issue permits on a "shall issue" basis.
    Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I meant to say that licensing is a recent thing, and that it is entirely plausible that court decisions haven't caught up with the fact yet.

    Weapons restrictions have been around as long as the Republic, for various reasons, not all of which require the assumption that the people behind the associated laws were evil, corrupt, or part of a conspiracy. That, however, is an entirely different matter.

    The point is still that the Full Faith and Credit clause did not apply at all before the right to carry a weapon turned into a licensing scheme (that is to say, a Public Act) in most States.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  12. #27
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    The answer to the OP's original question is easily summed up in two words "political correctness". Nothing more or nothing less. I could elaborate more but JD would probably slap me.
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  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Andy W.'s Avatar
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    Stormtruck2, you raise a good question, there does seem to be a double standard. I assume it's because guns are not politically correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akross View Post
    Even if these states don't allow full reciprocity from other states they should at least allow 24-48 grace periods for travelers and visitors.
    Could you imagine the outcry from the left if some states allowed 24-48 hour grace periods for visitors with "alternative lifestyles"?
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  14. #29
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    The simple answer is that the full faith and credit clause of the U.S. Constitution that provides that each state shall give effect to the official acts of other states within the union also provides that Congress has the power to define what that means and how to go about it. Congress has acted to limit the recognition of so-called marriages which contravene the public policy of a state in which recognition be sought. Simple as that.

    The use of the phrase, "gay marriage", is in and of itself, problematic, since the traditional common law definition of "marriage" is the monogamous union of a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation. So "gay marriage" isn't "marriage" in most places, and in Virginia, homosexual "civil unions" are classified as "void".
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  15. #30
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rolyat63 View Post
    Stormtruck - that is a very pointed framing of a good question. Presupposing there is some kind of logic to it is flawed. It could be as simple as revenue. Take hunting and Fishing license/permits (not quite a straightforward comparison but for the point) are either issued state by state or in some cases there is some limited reciprocity (adjoining states etc...).

    I suspect though the uninformed rule the day. Bottom line it should not take reciprocity, or even a full faith clause in the Constitution. It should only take the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution.


    I believe that this is the best answer by far. It's always about money. Just like your fishing license is no good in another state, because you didn't pay in that state. Some states have it worked out between themselves about CCW and some don't. I sincerely doubt that it's some nefarious plot against whitey, married people, or conservatives. It's a green thing.

    Why in the world we even need a permit to defend our lives is beyond me.... I find it disgusting.

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