Falsely Accused

This is a discussion on Falsely Accused within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SelfDefense Polygraphs are only as good as the examiner. The questions must be formulated carefully and the basis questions are just as ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Polygraphs are only as good as the examiner. The questions must be formulated carefully and the basis questions are just as important.

    It is virtually impossible to defeat a polygraph. If you are lying you will not escape a competant examiner. The downside is it is very susceptible to false positives.

    In the business of national security, a false positive will simply limit job opportunities as the candidate will be rejected, whether he is lying or not. That particular flaw is one reason a polygraph is typically not accepted as evidence in the judicial system.
    Doesn't your own statement contradict itself on the reliability factor?
    It is impossible to be accurate and yet susceptible to a false positive.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    This is just one reason why you keep the fact that you CC to yourself & your spouse, period. The people who know I carry are limited to:

    • My wife
    • My CCW instructor
    • A few close friends who also have CCWs & carry


    The people who don't know I carry:

    • My mother-in-law (my parents are deceased)
    • My kids & grand kids
    • None of my neighbors
    • My minister (do I carry in Church? You bet I do!)
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  4. #18
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  5. #19
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    Stay away from 'crazy' neighbors for starters. One can usually figure this out pretty quickly. We've lived near some 'crazies' down through the years and I stay away from them like the plague.
    Had one neighbor who was always yelling out the window to kids and other neighbors...most people already knew he was way out there. If he ever called the cops (which he didn't), I would not have worried much about it. He was too well-known, and he didn't know about any weapons.

    When it comes to SD talk in our neighborhood, I know who I can talk with, and the rest of them never hear from me, so I'm not worried about a neighbor making such a call. Actually, the OP's question is not something I even think about.
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  6. #20
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    Doesn't your own statement contradict itself on the reliability factor?
    It is impossible to be accurate and yet susceptible to a false positive.
    Reliability is a function of what the goal is. I am suggesting that a skilled polygraph examiner will have a high degree of confidence determining whether someone is lying. On the other hand, there is a lower confidence of determining whether someone is telling the truth.

    It is virtually impossible to control autonomous bodily functions that are consistent with lying. The converse is that even when telling the truth those same measured metrics will trigger a false positive.

    The polygraph is great for determining whether someone is lying. Unfortunately, the cost is that people telling the truth can be found to 'fail' the examination. For innocent people and those telling the truth a negative polygraph examination (passing) is very substantial evidence that one is telling the truth.

    In the realm of national security, it is less important to deny a qualified candidate and very important to make sure an enemy does infiltrate.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    It is virtually impossible to control autonomous bodily functions that are consistent with lying.
    Scientific research says otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Journal of Forensic Psychology Practice
    Although the CQT [Control Question test] may be useful as an investigative aid and tool to induce confessions, it does not pass muster as a scientifically credible test. CQT theory is based on naive, implausible assumptions indicating (a) that it is biased against innocent individuals and (b) that it can be beaten simply by artificially augmenting responses to control questions.

  8. #22
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Scientific research says otherwise.
    I'm not sure you are reading what I am writing.

    Journal of Forensic Psychology Practice
    Although the CQT [Control Question test] may be useful as an investigative aid and tool to induce confessions, it does not pass muster as a scientifically credible test. CQT theory is based on naive, implausible assumptions indicating (a) that it is biased against innocent individuals and (b) that it can be beaten simply by artificially augmenting responses to control questions
    First, this has NOTHING to do with psychology so their opinion is meaningless.

    And yes, it is biased against innocent individuals. That is the point. It is virtually impossible to to pass a polygraph if you are lying.

    And no, it can't be 'beaten' by 'artificially augmenting' response to control questions, whatever that is supposed to mean. Skilled examiners cannot be fooled by those tactics. Try anything like that and you will fail the test. Pretty simple.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    First, this has NOTHING to do with psychology so their opinion is meaningless.

    And yes, it is biased against innocent individuals. That is the point. It is virtually impossible to to pass a polygraph if you are lying.

    And no, it can't be 'beaten' by 'artificially augmenting' response to control questions, whatever that is supposed to mean. Skilled examiners cannot be fooled by those tactics. Try anything like that and you will fail the test. Pretty simple.
    This is not opinion. There are scientific studies showing that more than 50% of guilty people can fool a polygraph after 30 minutes of instruction in how to do so.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    I got to thinking about something as I was mowing the lawn in the windy conditions today carrying IWB...thinking the wind would make the handle of my gun print a bit.

    Suppose someone knew you carried(OC or CC, doesn't matter) and accused you of pointing your gun at them in a threatening mannor, which you didn't. The reason they accused you doesn't matter(jerk, enemy, mentally unstable, for the heck of it). The person called the police and accused you of this. Its their word against yours, no witnesses. For the sake of argument you carry a standard black glock, and this is what the guy guesses(if you CC) when he tells the cops you pointed it at him and threatened him.

    How does such a situation get resolved?
    By your shutting up, not incriminating yourself and asking for a lawyer.

  11. #25
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    This is not opinion. There are scientific studies showing that more than 50% of guilty people can fool a polygraph after 30 minutes of instruction in how to do so.
    As I related earlier, a skilled examiner will not be fooled by any '30 minutes of instruction.'

    Scientific studies?

    The art of polygraph examination is an art, not a science. It is virtually impossible for a liar to pass a polygraph examination. Even if they have an hour of instruction.

    And yes, the belief that people can fool a polygraph is opinion, not a scientific study. I have previously read the bogus claim of thirty minutes of instruction. They sell their method to unsuspecting dupes. I read it on the internet!

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    Offer to take a polygraph.

    If the other guy is lying, he will refuse to take a polygraph test.

    Problem solved.
    Bingo! I have seen this very thing happen yet in a different situation.

    A neighbor of mine had their house catch fire and the fire dept suspected arson. A second neighbor called me about it and I qwent over and helped save the house.

    That very day the arson investigator called and a third neighbor. He asked if we would take a polygraph. I said yes, the third neighbor said that he would have to speak to her lawyer.

    Basically he told me she set the house on fire but he wouldnt be able to pin it on her.

    This was back in 98 when Florida had all those wild fires.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    The art of polygraph examination is an art, not a science.
    The refuge of every BS artist. "This is an art, not a science."

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    And yes, the belief that people can fool a polygraph is opinion, not a scientific study. I have previously read the bogus claim of thirty minutes of instruction. They sell their method to unsuspecting dupes. I read it on the internet!
    Instead of limiting your reading to the internet, you may wish to consult Honts, C.R., Raskin, D.C. & Kircher, J.C. (1994) Mental and physical countermeasures reduce the accuracy of polygraph tests. Journal of Applied Psychology, 79, 252-259.

  14. #28
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    The refuge of every BS artist. "This is an art, not a science."



    Instead of limiting your reading to the internet, you may wish to consult Honts, C.R., Raskin, D.C. & Kircher, J.C. (1994) Mental and physical countermeasures reduce the accuracy of polygraph tests. Journal of Applied Psychology, 79, 252-259.
    You keep referring to psychology. Polygraphs rely on physiological readings. Nothing you can 'think' will affect your autonomous responses. Psychology is as much a part of polygraphs as rain is to the sun coming up in the moring.

    But believe what you like. Hopefully, people will research the issue and make their own determination. Better yet, simply tell the truth. And no matter what the opinion, the fact is that the polygraph is used extensively in national security. And, as others have noted, avoidance of a polygraph is not any evidence of innocence and criminals will avoid them. (Because they cannot be beat. Unless they take the thirty minute internet course!)

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    You keep referring to psychology. Polygraphs rely on physiological readings. Nothing you can 'think' will affect your autonomous responses.
    This is a rather startling statement from someone arguing in favor of the polygraph. If there is no linkage between the mind and those autonomic responses, what exactly does the polygraph purport to measure?

    In any case, if you feel there is some other area of the scientific literature that has a more comprehensive assessment of the validity of the polygraph, feel free to point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    But believe what you like. Hopefully, people will research the issue and make their own determination.
    If they do, they'll find that the vast majority of scientists agree that polygraph tests are scientifically unsound.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Polygraphs are only as good as the examiner. The questions must be formulated carefully and the basis questions are just as important.

    It is virtually impossible to defeat a polygraph. If you are lying you will not escape a competant examiner. The downside is it is very susceptible to false positives.

    In the business of national security, a false positive will simply limit job opportunities as the candidate will be rejected, whether he is lying or not. That particular flaw is one reason a polygraph is typically not accepted as evidence in the judicial system.
    Inadmissible as evidence in court, yes.

    However, I've seen several people clear themselves by taking a polygraph.
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