Falsely Accused

This is a discussion on Falsely Accused within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Without a corroborating witness and if the police did not actually see it, you will not be arrested. Plus, one would hope at least, that ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Without a corroborating witness and if the police did not actually see it, you will not be arrested.

    Plus, one would hope at least, that once the background of both you and the accuser are looked at, you being a law abiding citizen who has taken the time and expense to obtain a carry permit and do not have a criminal record, they should see you as a good guy at least partly.

    But as I said and as has been said before on this thread, with no witness to back the accuser up, no prosecutor worth a darn would touch the case.

    I OC and this is something I simply do not worry about. And I won't start worrying about it either.
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  3. #32
    Member Array heph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Reliability is a function of what the goal is. I am suggesting that a skilled polygraph examiner will have a high degree of confidence determining whether someone is lying. On the other hand, there is a lower confidence of determining whether someone is telling the truth.

    It is virtually impossible to control autonomous bodily functions that are consistent with lying. The converse is that even when telling the truth those same measured metrics will trigger a false positive.


    The polygraph is great for determining whether someone is lying. Unfortunately, the cost is that people telling the truth can be found to 'fail' the examination. For innocent people and those telling the truth a negative polygraph examination (passing) is very substantial evidence that one is telling the truth.

    In the realm of national security, it is less important to deny a qualified candidate and very important to make sure an enemy does infiltrate.
    If what you say is true, then a polygraph should be better at verifying someone is telling the truth, but bad at verifying they are lying.

    You say that it is virtually impossible to suppress autonomic reflexes associated with lying, yet many honest people will also exhibit those responses. So in the "lying according to the test" group, we'll have x number of liars plus a percentage of honest, but nervous people.

    In the "truth-telling according to the test" group there should only be actual truth-tellers, assuming it is so difficult to suppress those reflexes.

  4. #33
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heph View Post
    If what you say is true, then a polygraph should be better at verifying someone is telling the truth, but bad at verifying they are lying.

    You say that it is virtually impossible to suppress autonomic reflexes associated with lying, yet many honest people will also exhibit those responses. So in the "lying according to the test" group, we'll have x number of liars plus a percentage of honest, but nervous people.

    In the "truth-telling according to the test" group there should only be actual truth-tellers, assuming it is so difficult to suppress those reflexes.
    Yes!!!!!

    Perhaps I am not conveying my point well tonight. You have presented it quite clearly.

    If someone passes a polygraph there is an extremely high degree of confidence they are telling the truth.
    Sorry for hijacjing this thread. I never imagined that a polygraph examination would elicit such controversy. I thought most people were aware of the false positives that make it problematic. On the other hand, a liar has virtually no chance of escaping...

  5. #34
    Senior Member Array tankdriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Polygraphs are only as good as the examiner. The questions must be formulated carefully and the basis questions are just as important.

    It is virtually impossible to defeat a polygraph. If you are lying you will not escape a competant examiner. The downside is it is very susceptible to false positives.

    In the business of national security, a false positive will simply limit job opportunities as the candidate will be rejected, whether he is lying or not. That particular flaw is one reason a polygraph is typically not accepted as evidence in the judicial system.
    I have taken about 6 Lie Dectors in my life. As armed Security, and in various Mangement postions. I fluked everyone I have ever taken. One of them I was given as a manger at a store, they came and told me "you flunked you LD test" I told figured that. I flunked the pre-employment one also didn't I. They replied "Yep".......

    Did not lose my job.......
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heph View Post
    If what you say is true, then a polygraph should be better at verifying someone is telling the truth, but bad at verifying they are lying.
    Isn't this how the test can be beat? You don't try to cover up your reactions when you are lying. You mask your reactions when telling the truth in order to confuse the results.

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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by doobie View Post
    If they don't know what your gun looks like, make sure you have a 'unique' gun and have them describe it.

    If I pulled my gun on someone, they wouldn't be alive to talk about it.
    Don't take this as condescending, but we carry to stop threats, not end lives, you might want to rethink (edit) your post.


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  8. #37
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    I personally don't worry about it. If it happens, it happens. No sense worrying about something I have no control over.

  9. #38
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Isn't this how the test can be beat? You don't try to cover up your reactions when you are lying. You mask your reactions when telling the truth in order to confuse the results.
    Even if you could do thatm which is highly unlikely, you fail.

    What most people fail to recognize is the default condition is that you fail. You pass by having a distinct difference in the truth control and the false controls. If not, you fail. That is why false positives are a problem. And the skilled examiners actually aid the 'innocent' since they are best able to determine the nervous reactions of the stress of a polygraph.

    And is is very stressful to the point of being adversarial.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankdriver View Post
    I have taken about 6 Lie Dectors in my life. As armed Security, and in various Mangement postions. I fluked everyone I have ever taken. One of them I was given as a manger at a store, they came and told me "you flunked you LD test" I told figured that. I flunked the pre-employment one also didn't I. They replied "Yep".......

    Did not lose my job.......
    Actually, that is consistent with the point I am trying to make. You 'flunked' but there are also examiner comments... I think a better way of looking at is is that you didn't pass. The distinction is all important.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    And the skilled examiners actually aid the 'innocent' since they are best able to determine the nervous reactions of the stress of a polygraph.
    And that is why polygraphs are BS IMO and scientific minded people put no stock in them.

    They are based on the "skill" of an examiner being adversarial and using their own absolutely fallible judgment to decide whether a given response is a physiologic manifestation of untruthfulness or just plain nervousness. You'd have to off your rocker to voluntarily subject yourself to such an examination.

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array Squawker's Avatar
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    I understand that Pathological liars can pass polygraphs. They just don't exhibit positive responses.
    I used to work for Circuit City (At the first Superstore, even before they changed their name from The Ward's Loading Dock to Circuit City) back in the mid 70's. They required a lie detector test for employees, especially salesmen. The first test, I was asked if I had ever stolen anything. I gave a positive response, even though I had never stolen anything. He repeated it a few times, and I always reacted. He changed the question to "Have you ever taken anything that wasn't yours?", and I didn't react as positive. He concluded that I react to the words "Steal" and "Stolen". It happened like that every time I took one (we had to take one yearly. I was pretty happy when the laws changed that you could no longer be required to take a polygraph for employment (certain exceptions were made, of course).

  12. #41
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heph View Post
    And that is why polygraphs are BS IMO and scientific minded people put no stock in them.
    False positives are not a problem if you are attempting to detect who is not telling the truth.

    They are based on the "skill" of an examiner being adversarial and using their own absolutely fallible judgment to decide whether a given response is a physiologic manifestation of untruthfulness or just plain nervousness.
    Doctors use their own absolutely fallible judgement to decide their diagnosis. Do you hold their opinion as questionable as you seem to hold polygraph examiners? Don't get me wrong. Some polygraph examiners are not very good at their job. In every profession, doctors, lawyers, electricians, plumbers there are ineffective people.

    You'd have to off your rocker to voluntarily subject yourself to such an examination.
    I think exactly the opposite is true. If you are innocent then passing a polygraph is proof virtually positive you are telling the truth. If you fail it does not mean as much.

    For some of us, there is no option as to whether to take or not take the polygraph. That is, if you want the job. In reality, truthful people pass and liars fail. There are exceptions, of course.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tankdriver View Post
    I have taken about 6 Lie Dectors in my life. As armed Security, and in various Mangement postions. I fluked everyone I have ever taken. One of them I was given as a manger at a store, they came and told me "you flunked you LD test" I told figured that. I flunked the pre-employment one also didn't I. They replied "Yep".......

    Did not lose my job.......
    Actually, that is consistent with the point I am trying to make. You 'flunked' but there are also examiner comments... I think a better way of looking at is is that you didn't pass. The distinction is all important.
    And the fact that he wasn't fired illustrates the problem with false positives. If you get positives all the time, and everyone knows most of them are false, people start ignoring positive results. Then when a real positive comes along, nobody pays it any attention. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

    Useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Doctors use their own absolutely fallible judgement to decide their diagnosis.
    Doctors tend not to rely on techniques that have been disproven by scientific studies.

  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doobie View Post
    If they don't know what your gun looks like, make sure you have a 'unique' gun and have them describe it.
    Wonder if my daughter has any leftover "Hello, Kitty!" or "Sparkle Pony" stickers I could use? Stikes me as highly embarassing if anyone saw such a thing on my weapon... but I carry concealed. And if a bad guy saw it, it ought to mess with his concentration!

  15. #44
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    I didn't read every reply, but as a former LEO I think the primary factor would be motive. What reason would you have for pointing a gun at the subject? Unless he could provide a solid basis for why you did, this I would immediately start to doubt his story and would quickly start picking it apart. It was always my experience that as soon as a flaw was detected in either side of the story, it rapidly fell apart.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squawker View Post
    I understand that Pathological liars can pass polygraphs.

    Yes.

    Sociopathic liars can pass a polygraph, which is one of the reasons it is inadmissible in court.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Winston Churchill

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