Intervention Rule?

This is a discussion on Intervention Rule? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I largely agree with kobun kibun. #1 is probably the safest; #2 may cause much trouble. #4 might be the best answer at some point ...

View Poll Results: Intervention Rule?

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  • Absolute "For me and mine, ONLY!"

    12 3.17%
  • I'll NOT stand idly by.

    66 17.46%
  • Primarily "for me and mine," but may intervene under certain conditions.

    275 72.75%
  • I don't honestly know.

    25 6.61%
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Thread: Intervention Rule?

  1. #76
    Member Array LTPhoon's Avatar
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    I largely agree with kobun kibun. #1 is probably the safest; #2 may cause much trouble. #4 might be the best answer at some point in one's carry career, though, as it addresses the uncertainties outlined in kk's post. In moving from #4 to something more proactive (2,3) or less (1) it helps to remember that "shoot" rhymes with "suit" and that all bullets have a lawyers name engraved on them. This site http://www.azdps.gov/ccw/legal.asp which I found browsing packing.org and is put up by the Arizona Department of Public Safety deserves a careful read. Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" can't hurt either.

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  3. #77
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    3. Primarily "me and mine," but may intervene under some conditions.
    Bad things happen every day, often for no apparent reason whatsoever. It can appear random and pointless. It usually takes us unawares and develops quickly. I am extremely cognizant of the risks and generally believe I will only step up to lethal force in protection of "me and mine."

    Generally, I will avoid involvement given the legal and financial entanglements our fine society sees fit to inflict on otherwise well-meaning citizens, sadly choosing to instead forget the perpetrators of the crime and to manufacture another crime in a sad game of blame.

    However, if a situation develops in my immediate vicinity and it's putting me and those nearby in immediate mortal danger (ie, armed robbery, gang beating, riot), I would not hesitate to bring all reasonable and necessary force to bear to stop the violent attack. If I can help it and if afforded the choice, I will avoid involvement. But bad guys aren't likely to ask me what I prefer or want. In the end, I simply refuse to be victimized by someone exercising lethal force, without putting up a fight. That and the situation dynamics will guide everything, for me.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #78
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Ok, I've got an update now. First, as a reminder, I voted #2. Now, after October 1, 2006, as long as I'm justified in using deadly force, I can't be prosecuted, nor can I be sued! Also, I will no longer be obliged to retreat as long as I have a legal right to be where I'm at.

    Gotta love new laws.

  5. #79
    Member Array DizTbone's Avatar
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    Like so many have said, "primarily for me and mine." However, I remember walking through a mall in southern MS several years ago...well..more like 25 years ago, and seeing a man on the floor of the mall's center court being kicked viciously by two young men. Dad hurried us off out of harm's way...but I kept thinking, "if that were me, I'd want someone to help."

    Additionally, my wife is a rape/domestic abuse survivor. Having been frequently awakened by her screams during flashbacks has caused me to believe that trying to help someone avoid that is worth anything.

    OTOH, I also know that not everything is as it looks. So, I'll go with my local DA's interpretation... "Will the harm involved in action prevent a greater harm to myself or to a third party?"

    Unfortunately, I won't have time to question the paricipants in a situation in order to determine the actual extent of the harm being or about be perpetrated before making a go/no-go decision. It's quite unsarisfactory to hope that a DA or jury see what I thought I saw to be what any reasonable person would construe as a crime of violence about to commence or in progress. I guess I'll just have to come up with a whole boat-load of criteria for what is or is not "reasonable." As far as I know, private citizens in my state have no duty to intervene. However, I'd rather be able to sleep at night and shave in the morning than think that I could have helped another and chose not to do so.

    Michael
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  6. #80
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    I'll NOT just stand by & let it happen if I can prevent it.

    In my judgement we have the moral duty & responsibility to stop or prevent bad things if possible. That is the reason we carry! We didn't go through all the requirements, background checks, fingerprinting & TRAINING to just stand by while evil florishes.

    I agree family comes FIRST, but if possible WILL intervene when required.

    My moral compass will lead me in the right direction, how about your's?

    QUOTES FROM BETTER MEN THAN I



    "A man ought to do what he thinks is right…"--John Wayne

    "Such poor miserable creatures have misplaced values and are hiding their cowardice behind pretended family responsibility, blindly returning to see that the most glorious legacy that one can bequeath to posterity is LIBERTY; and that the only true security is liberty." - Marvin Cool

    "...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.... Horrid mischief would ensue were [the law-abiding] deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine

    "Many cry peace, peace, but there is no peace. The war is actually begun. Why stand we here idle? Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid Almighty God, I know not what course others may take, but for me, give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

    "As long as law-abiding citizens assume no personal responsibility for combating crime, liberal and conservative programs for curbing crime will fail." - Jeffrey R. Snyder, The Public Interest, No.113, Fall 1993.

    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, do nothing." - Dante

    "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams, Debates of 1776.

    Luke 11:21 "When a man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are undisturbed."
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  7. #81
    Senior Member Array DMan's Avatar
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    I vote primarily for me and mine. I would not draw for a simple convience store robbery, but as soon as I feel someone's life is in danger, then I feel obligated to protect life. Remember, as soon as you get involved you may be placing yourself in a dire situation, and may need to defend your own life. Is this an escalation?
    "Gun Free Zones" is where only criminals carry guns.

  8. #82
    New Member Array artill237's Avatar
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    The "certain conditions" would have to be crystal clear before I'd intervene. It may sound sort of callous but the herd of lawyers lurking down the road just beyond the 'somebody needs my help corner' is enough to instill a lot of reluctance on my part. I carry to: a) support the 2nd, and b) to get a second chance at getting out the back door if I'm ever too dumb or too unlucky to avoid the situation where I need to do so. That said, yeah, I guess if you see the villain really tying the helpless lady to the railroad track you need to do something.

  9. #83
    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    +1 on the majority here....
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


    "...be water, my friend."

  10. #84
    Member Array TC-TX's Avatar
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    Primarily "for me and mine," but may intervene under certain conditions...

    Only because there is SO MUCH about the conditions of an event that I have no knowledge of...

    If it is OVERTLY visableand Obvious... I am in there - no issue...

    Otherwise I must be cautious in engagement...

    MY First Rule of interference: FIRST DO NO HARM
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  11. #85
    Member Array Fireblade1's Avatar
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    #2

    after positively identifying target as Bg and not victim, and if justifiable situation I would not hesitate to help someone in need. deadly force would be the last resort if given no other choice.

  12. #86
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I voted for #3 but I think the real answer is somewhere between #2 and #3.

    I admit that I'm a dinosaur. I was raised in a family where my Dad's handshake was as iron clad as a written contract and in a neighborhood where people looked out after each other.

    I don't think I could live with myself if I stood by and watched while someone got killed if I could have stopped it....and I can't get too excited about legal issues. I am not going to let the courts scare me into becoming a sheeple.

    However, when we make the decision to carry a gun, we take on a HUGE responsibility. I think that it would be worse to shoot a good guy because you didn't understand the situation.

    If it is obvious that a bad guy is shooting people, by all means, I would try to stop him.

    I think most of us would intervene if the situation were obvious. For example, if I had been walking by Luby's restaurant in Texas and saw the truck crash thru the front window and the guy get out and start randomly shooting people, I would definitely have tried to take him out.

    But I think you have to stand by and stay your trigger finger long enough to determine that your understanding of the situation is correct. If I happen around a corner and see some people fighting or even someone shooting at another person, it would take some time to really determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy.

    Overall, I agree with the comment that if I refuse to help someone, how can I complain if no one helps my family when I'm not there?

  13. #87
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    However, when we make the decision to carry a gun, we take on a HUGE responsibility. I think that it would be worse to shoot a good guy because you didn't understand the situation.
    Absolutely. That plus twisted legalities mean: it had better be crystal clear. For me, if my life/limb is in harm's way, or of it's a bad situation that's obvious to all (ie, shootout at the corner store/mall), it's getting stopped. Otherwise, it's all to easy to play wannabe cop and mis-read a situation.

    Overall, I agree with the comment that if I refuse to help someone, how can I complain if no one helps my family when I'm not there?
    In the beginning, it was simple. In the end, it will also be simple. What a sad indicator that it isn't that simple ...
    :evil2:
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #88
    Senior Member Array Rugerman's Avatar
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    I chose under certain conditions. If I was say in a place of business that had been taken over by BG's and they clearly were going to kill people. I would have to intervene. I would not however jump right in imediately. I would make a good assessment of the situation first.
    George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed."

  15. #89
    Member Array jmiked's Avatar
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    Another for number 3, the situation would have to be clear and potentialy lethal!

    William Wallace
    Do not stand between Me and Mine!!

  16. #90
    Senior Member Array '75scout's Avatar
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    Voted #3. Depending on the situation and percieved threat I'd certainly get involved to save someone else.

    However, you have to consider the fact that you might not have seen the entire event unfold. How do I know that someone with a gun drawn on someone else isn't another chl holder and is defending themselves from an attacker?

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