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I try not to argue, but it's so hard to hold back!!!

5K views 67 replies 47 participants last post by  nutz4utwo 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Just arguing at the national guard forums about carrying in uniform, but it turned into carrying in general...

this is what one guy says

Leave your guns at home at let the professionals handle law enforcement
I said I'd stay out of the thread, but man!!! It's just so HARD to not say something to this [Edited] moron!!!

/rant
 
#3 ·
You cannot change by reasoning a belief not acquired by logic.
Like the proverbial "teaching a pig to sing ..."
 
#4 ·
Ok, let the professionals handle law enforcement. But we'll handle self-defense.

:comeandgetsome:
 
#5 ·
I really must admit to being influenced by this board to a great degree. I am new to ccw, and have found great wisdom here. I no longer get angry at people who cut me off in traffic, nor look to be offended.

I carry a weapon. I need to be mindful of my actions and not give offense. In no way do I want to feel forced to draw my weapon because of anything I may say or do.

If I ever have to draw (God forbid), it will NEVER be because I engaged in fight that escalates to a point where weapons are required.

What do you have to prove? You most likely will not change anyone's opinion.

Walk away.
 
#7 ·
MadMac,

Perceptions can get you into trouble as well. A wise NRA instructor once taught me that we do not carry weapons. We carry firearms. Weapon is an offensive term while forearm is defensive. It took him about 20 times of teaching me that point in two days :twak: but I finally got it and now try to spread the word everywhere people will listen. :danceban:
 
#10 ·
I respectfully request you have your "wise" NRA instructor read the following definitions of WEAPON as defined at Dictionary.com ...... :

1. any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war as a sword, rifle, or cannon.

2. an instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.

3. an instrument of offensive or defensive combat; something to fight with; anything used, or designed to be used, in destroying, defeating, or injuring an enemy, as a gun, a sword, etc.

I personally carry a weapon.
 
#11 ·
North of the border and concealed carry is for the privileged few; I have had two home invasions, had a revolver stuck in my nose once, had one friend pistol whipped by a customer and robbed; had another friend murdered in his jewelery store by bad guys (both had alarm systems installed).

So please tell me... what are the professionals doing for me?

Personally, it is my belief that the law should state that every able bodied man and woman should receive rudimentary training and be issued with a concealed weapons permit and it should be THE LAW that one must carry at all times. Period.

Let the bad guys take a licking for a change.
 
#12 ·
If it's an issue of carrying on Guard property or Guard duty, you have to follow your standing orders. If you're in the guard but on your own time and off Guard property, let your concience be your guide. :yup:
 
#13 ·
Just now something suddenly occurred to me. As holders of CCW permits we are held to a higher standard than the average citizen who is unarmed. We know any actions we take involving the use of our handguns will reflect on how we are perceived by the unarmed public.

Some will always see us as people who are "gun nuts" while others will see us as individuals who want to protect ourselves & our loved ones. So we owe it to ourselves to think a great deal before we consider unholstering a handgun we are carrying. We cannot take them for granted. Ever!

We should be using all of our experiences in the past to avoid being in a situation that may put us in harms way. If need be, it may mean just walking away and hearing a great deal of verbal abuse of the vilest nature. That is the higher place to be in that circumstance.

Again, as CCW permit holders we are now held to a higher standard. We should act accordingly under the circumstances.
 
#14 ·
He is probably one of the people who thinks that he is one of the "professionals" and he should only be allowed to carry a weapon. Personally, i agree that it is sometimes hard to hold back on forums. But there will always be someone on the internet with a different oppinion then you, which he is entitled to. No matter how assinine(SP?) or ignorant it is.
 
#16 ·
Perceptions can get you into trouble as well. A wise NRA instructor once taught me that we do not carry weapons. We carry firearms. Weapon is an offensive term while forearm is defensive. It took him about 20 times of teaching me that point in two days but I finally got it and now try to spread the word everywhere people will listen.
It's a matter of perception. I teach 4-H Shooting Sports. When I went through the training, it was stressed that we not refer to the firearms as "weapons". Nor do we use silhouette targets. Working with kids, the primary idea is to get them into an environment where we can teach life skills. I'm former military, and have shot competitively. This was a hard habit to break. Each time one of us said "weapon" we had to put a quarter in the coffee kitty. In two days, I was in for $8.

I'm also a CCW permit holder. What I carry is a weapon in the truest sense of the word.
1. any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war as a sword, rifle, or cannon.
It's pretty hard to compartmentalize the two.
 
#19 ·
It's a matter of perception. I teach 4-H Shooting Sports. When I went through the training, it was stressed that we not refer to the firearms as "weapons". Nor do we use silhouette targets. Working with kids, the primary idea is to get them into an environment where we can teach life skills. I'm former military, and have shot competitively. This was a hard habit to break. Each time one of us said "weapon" we had to put a quarter in the coffee kitty. In two days, I was in for $8.

I'm also a CCW permit holder. What I carry is a weapon in the truest sense of the word.

It's pretty hard to compartmentalize the two.
I am a retired GI, and "weapon" is internalized to the point I feel I cannot change it.

Since I do not have to teach kids, and the reason I carry is for personal and family protection, I only use silhouette targets and practice my draw and presentation as if it is a life-threatening situation.

I pray every day I never need to employ those skills; however, if the situation arises, I cannot be unprepared or untrained. For me, my EDC is my weapon.
 
#17 ·
I have absolutely no problem at all with the police handling general Law Enforcement.

But, when the laws that the criminals intend to break impact me immediately and directly....the only realistic option is to have the ability to protect myself from a deadly threat.

As a hypothetical tell whoever posted that to try calling up the Police Department and tell the Police that they have been threatened and feel that their life may be in danger and then request 24 hour 'round the clock Police Protection.

The Police will him that they are not a bodyguard service for individual citizens and that it is not their job to protect individuals on an ongoing daily basis.

They will tell him to either hire an armed bodyguard or go out and buy a gun.
 
#18 ·
I carry insurance on my car in case I crash.

I carry insurance on my house in case there is a fire.

I carry insurance in my holster in case there is a psychopath.

No one wants to deal with a car crash, or a fire, or a psychopath. But sometimes those things happen and I like to be prepared.

In fact, it is a LAW that I carry insurance on my car, and my mortgage company makes me carry insurance on my house.

Yet, there are those in this country that would like to force me to NOT carry my insurance against a psychopath.

Fire is random, car crashes are accidents. They require insurance. Psychopaths are both random and calculating, often targeted, yet they don't require insurance? Why not?
 
#23 ·
This is probably not the thread for this, but since we are discussing semantics, I confess I detest the sheep and sheepdog analogies.

If your neighbor doesn't carry a firearm for personal defense, or is even a rabid anti-gun type, that's their choice. This is America - at least for a few more days if we're lucky. It's about freedom to choose.

Referring to one's fellow citizens as "sheep" has a pejorative nuance I find condescending with overtones of smug superiority and self-importance. As we are all well aware, many people don't even realize concealed carry is an option, and many, many more accept the risks of living unarmed. That's their choice.

Additionally, I didn't accept the responsibility of being armed to be a self-appointed guardian of my fellow citizens. That's the job of law enforcement. I simply take an additional precaution to arm myself for the protection of my person and those under my roof. The sheepdog mindset sounds like a LEO wanna-be to me.

"Go ahead and walk around in a daze, you fools. MadMac walks silently beside you in the Mall and is armed and ready to fight back on your behalf against armed thugs, deranged crazies, and zombies."

How silly does that sound?
 
#24 ·
I was at the local Academy last week to see if they had any ammo in stock, and one of the sales clerks was talking to a customer saying that he hoped that Obama would reinstitute the Assault weapons ban since there was no us for those types of guns. He was shocked that they sold them there and was shocked that one cost over $2,000.00. All I could say was they need to pay attention to what is considered an assault weapon.
 
#41 ·
it's not mentioned anywhere as far as civilian time carry... (we were not talking about carrying while in base, lets say a recruiter carries it, or say u carry it on your way home, while in uniform)

at the base, we'd have to register it actually
 
#28 ·
Wasn't it mentioned before that personal protection is not the responsibility of law enforcement, law enforcement is responsible for the protection of the society as a whole? I am not sure if this is correct but I take it to heart. If something terrible is about to happen to me the chances of LEO being there is slim.
 
#36 ·
Most WARS, are not fought by "professionals".
 
#42 ·
The dumbest thing about people who think like this, is that they would praise every inch of your being if you saved their wife or child by taking out, or preventing a death/kidnapping with your gun that you "should have left at home". Ridiculous hypocrites. Am I wrong that all of these people are hypocrites? Or would they actually still tell me to leave that thing at home after we saved them?
 
#43 ·
It is easy to see that some on this forum have not served in uniform.

No,you are not to carry any time you are in uniform on or off base. If you want to carry then change into civies to leave the base (I always did anyway) Recruiters are on duty and are not to carry. If you are in the Armed Forces you are governed by the UCMJ and not by the Constitution. Yes, you do lose your civil rights when you are in uniform. this has all been hashed out in the courts and you have to accept it.

I spent thirty years on Active Duty in the USMC and could not carry on base in civies or anywhere in uniform unless it was specified as part of my offical duties by a written order. As a member of the TN State Guard I am again under the same restrictions. If I don't like it I can leave the Guard.

Civilians never will understand how the military operates, but it has to be said.

Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
 
#51 ·
MadMac sez...

Additionally, I didn't accept the responsibility of being armed to be a self-appointed guardian of my fellow citizens. That's the job of law enforcement. I simply take an additional precaution to arm myself for the protection of my person and those under my roof. The sheepdog mindset sounds like a LEO wanna-be to me.
I agree, to some degree, but part of that "sheepdog" metaphor is the idea that the armed, law-abiding citizen can prevent the tragedies the anti-2A types love to point to when calling for gun control. Don't we always say, "an armed teacher coulda stopped Columbine..." Or, "an armed student legally carrying concealed coulda stopped VA Tech..."

I posted this a few months back...




There was a post I read here a while back where people were saying that they would not draw to protect a stranger. I am not that guy. I am the biggest mark for strays, runaways, and damsels in distress, and it may well be my undoing someday. I WILL draw to protect your wife or your mother or your daughter from a rape or a beating... it doesn't matter that they are a stranger.

Suppose your daughter or mother was being raped in an alley and I happened upon it, but did nothing to stop it, even though I had 17 rounds of .45 ACP on me... what would you think of me...? Is "none of my business" a valid excuse for you while your daughter is recovering from facial fractures and suckin' air through a respirator?

I would like to think that you would do the same to protect my wife or my mother, but apparently, many people would not.

I'm sure many people would say, "you don't know the whole story", and "it's none of your business" and "best to stay out of it..." That could be true... but I can't think of a single good reason for a 200 lb man to beat a 100 lb woman. I, for one, will not listen to your Mom say "help me" and just walk by. I WILL stop it. I couldn't live with myself if I did not.

Part of the reason our society is what it has become is that we coddle criminals, and no one takes responsibility to be his brother's keeper... we've gone from "looking out for our neighbors" to "none of my business".
 
#53 ·
MadMac sez...



I agree, to some degree, but part of that "sheepdog" metaphor is the idea that the armed, law-abiding citizen can prevent the tragedies the anti-2A types love to point to when calling for gun control. Don't we always say, "an armed teacher coulda stopped Columbine..." Or, "an armed student legally carrying concealed coulda stopped VA Tech..."

I posted this a few months back...




There was a post I read here a while back where people were saying that they would not draw to protect a stranger. I am not that guy. I am the biggest mark for strays, runaways, and damsels in distress, and it may well be my undoing someday. I WILL draw to protect your wife or your mother or your daughter from a rape or a beating... it doesn't matter that they are a stranger.

Suppose your daughter or mother was being raped in an alley and I happened upon it, but did nothing to stop it, even though I had 17 rounds of .45 ACP on me... what would you think of me...? Is "none of my business" a valid excuse for you while your daughter is recovering from facial fractures and suckin' air through a respirator?

I would like to think that you would do the same to protect my wife or my mother, but apparently, many people would not.

I'm sure many people would say, "you don't know the whole story", and "it's none of your business" and "best to stay out of it..." That could be true... but I can't think of a single good reason for a 200 lb man to beat a 100 lb woman. I, for one, will not listen to your Mom say "help me" and just walk by. I WILL stop it. I couldn't live with myself if I did not.

Part of the reason our society is what it has become is that we coddle criminals, and no one takes responsibility to be his brother's keeper... we've gone from "looking out for our neighbors" to "none of my business".
Well I have to ask since you have taken on the grave responsibility of protecting others are you insured in case you mess up? Are you also prepared to save lives using first aid, a defibrillator, or a fire extinguisher? And I have to ask since you are your brothers keeper, do you let homeless people into the home and help them get back onto their feet? Do you volunteer your time at the local church, children hospital, or other place so you can help teach kids to act right? I mean are you your brothers keeper all the time or only when it comes to you pulling a firearm out of a holster and in violent conflict?
 
#52 ·
Leave your guns at home at let the professionals handle law enforcement
They. Aren't. Here.

On the instant of crime finding me, the simple fact is that well-intentioned Johnny LEO is 5mi and a phone call away. No matter how much I wish it were otherwise, those distant "professionals" aren't here ... and they almost certainly won't be until after the crime is complete. That's a fact.
 
#54 ·
This thread officially sucks.

I have nothing but respect for a person willing to step between my family and grave danger, in my absence. Heck, maybe step between me and grave danger, if I am unable...

I'm out of here, you guys enjoy your conversation. I'm off to see how much a portable defibrulator and compact fire extinguisher costs.
 
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