Reciprocity can be a recipe for disaster.

This is a discussion on Reciprocity can be a recipe for disaster. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jem102 These are very good points! I live in TN and that was written into our law so if the wind blows ...

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Thread: Reciprocity can be a recipe for disaster.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jem102 View Post
    These are very good points! I live in TN and that was written into our law so if the wind blows your jacket back getting out of the car exposing your gun the LEO can't get out of line with you, can it be technically construed as "open carry?" YES, but the legislatures intent was to protect the permit holder rather than provide an open carry in a crowded mall of sheep if you will. Now I absolutely believe that requiring a law abiding person to have a permit requiring renewal is a load of male bovine excrement (I do NOT disagree with a first time, ONE TIME, competency test, permit, background check or whatever you want to call it. After that let me alone and go catch bad guys). I feel the reciprocity agreements have grown way faster and larger than I ever expected! Let us not mess up what we have by becoming "unwelcome" guests in other states because we could not honor their requirements, we need to keep this thing rolling and some day down the line a ways we can flex some more muscle when a bulk of the states have solid agreements.
    QUESTION: What happens to your home state permit if you take a hit in a reciprocity state???

    Thanks, John
    That will depend on the violation and your state. Anything from nothing to a fine or possible revocation of your permit.

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    True point about knowing the local laws.

    On a trip through Kansas last year, I made a note to myself NOT to stop at those turnpike gas stations or state-owned rest stops. I don't remember why, but it was due to something I read while researching KS's laws.

    And it seems Oklahoma is much stricter about a gun being seen in a car's passenger compartment. I think it's strictly forbidden to have it visible.

    IIRC, in Texas one MUST notify LEO if carrying, otherwise it might turn into a firearm-related offense that may affect carry status.

    I also learned New Mexico only allows 1 concealed carry gun at a time. I guess that's fair, because surely the BG's will only be carrying 1 gun.

    Handgunlaw.us is a good starting point for research, but I would visit the actual state sites before finalizing my research. I found a Missouri law issue that was left off the summary at handgunlaw.us
    Funny how states like NJ and MD have the least restrictions on where you can carry, yet in OK and TX you have to tread on water... maybe it's because NJ and MD don't hand them out so they don't have to ban CC in certain places because it's already default illegal

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I run a copy of the gun laws for each state I visit while on vacation and use it as a quick reference while in that state. It pays to be careful.

  5. #19
    Member Array KSCarry's Avatar
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    If you were planning to carry in multiple states in a single day, I certainly understand where it can get confusing. However, must people are not in multiple states in a single day, so just a bit of research is all a sheepdog needs to stay in compliance.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Funny how states like NJ and MD have the least restrictions on where you can carry, yet in OK and TX you have to tread on water... maybe it's because NJ and MD don't hand them out so they don't have to ban CC in certain places because it's already default illegal
    Same in Mass. very few restrictions on carry, also very few permits per pop.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Here is my spin on this FWIW. In a perfect world the vast majority of honest citizens would be armed, crime would be low, and laws would be uniform and common sense. Until then, well kids we need to know our stuff.

    Carrying a firearm comes with a tacit acknowledgment that you accept the responsibility to carry it lawfully and intelligently. One of the reasons that I love DC is that the mods do not allow discussion of lawbreaking! If you carry on your home turf you need to follow the rules; how much more do you need to follow the rules in someone else's? As an analogy, when you go to someone else's house for dinner do you follow your own rules or do you respect their rules in their home? Of course you would be a polite friend and do things their way!

    Stay safe, stay armed, but with all that STAY LEGAL. Every state posts their revised statutes online; take the time to get familiar and know where you are going. As much as it chaps me when I head to CA I leave the firearm at home; when I visit my parents in NM it comes along for the ride though! Once we hit that border, then all NM laws apply and there isn't a cop in NM who is going to care one whit what AZ law is.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I'm of the opinion that the trap is with ignorance of the applicable laws, not with reciprocity.
    Yep.

    However, it is not just the ignorance of the carrier -- IMHO.

    Case in point -- I had an individual who teaches a class which qualifies one to meet VA's training requirement tell me that the difference in "recognition" and "reciprocity" was that in a State that only "recognizes" your permit you had to follow that State's law but in a State that has signed a mutual "reciprocity" agreement all you needed to do was follow the laws of the State that issued the permit.

    Like any law, it is the individual's responsibility to know the applicable laws. Gun laws, income tax laws, possession and transport of Rx, travel with children, etc, etc, etc.

    Can we?

    You got to be kidding.

    I know a man who followed the advice of a major tax preparer and got hit with major interest, penalties, etc.

    But the alternative is unthinkable -- "Honest Officer, Judge, etc I had no idea that was wrong (against the Law)!"

    OTOH, That's why I believe in Jury Nullification.
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  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array Squawker's Avatar
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    I have my Nevada permit, and 2 out of state permits, Utah and Florida, which lets me carry in over 30 states. When I plan to travel out of my home area, I check to see if I can carry there. I then review the laws of the area where I'm visiting. That's how I knew when visiting my home in Virginia, that I have to expose my gun when going into a restaurant. I don't know the laws in every state where I can carry via reciprocity, but I make sure that I know them before I will carry there.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array PointnClick's Avatar
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    Tom G sez...

    I run a copy of the gun laws for each state I visit while on vacation and use it as a quick reference while in that state. It pays to be careful.
    That's what I did on a recent trip to Michigan... print it up and read it on the plane/in the men's room/at the hotel/at the Denny's/whenever you get a chance...

    "Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"

  11. #25
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    I drove to Missouri with a friend last year to go hunting on his farm. Before leaving, I confirmed the reciprocity/recognition for my Ohio CHL, as well as general requirements. The only problem was Illinois, whose government has put itself in the role of "OSHA" for carjackers. I carried my Norinco M1911 IWB through Ohio and Indiana and up to the last stop before the Illinois border. I disarmed, unloaded my gun and placed it and the unloaded magazines in cases in the trunk.

    When we crossed back into the United States outside of Saint Louis, I rearmed.

    Other than being a potential victim in one state, there was no problem at all.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Funny how states like NJ and MD have the least restrictions on where you can carry, yet in OK and TX you have to tread on water... maybe it's because NJ and MD don't hand them out so they don't have to ban CC in certain places because it's already default illegal
    I disagree that Texas just hands them out. They have a pretty extensive background check, and is the reason that many complain about the time it takes to recieve a permit lately. You are also required to pass a 10 hr course before you can get a permit. Once you get a permit you no longer are required to have a NICS check preformed when buying guns in Texas.

    I also disagree that you have to tread water in Texas after getting a permit. There are a handful of places that you can't carry, and you have to look for a couple of signs, but it is far from restrictive.

    There are some states that just hand them out after going to the local sherrifs office or whereever and in a matter or days you are good to go. These states are usually the ones with very limited reciprocity from what I have seen. Both Texas and OK have over 30 states that reciprocate. Therefore folks from those states have much more to learn about other state laws when they travel since we are welcome many more places with our guns.

    I certainly don't think it is a good thing to severely limit the number of people that are allowed to have a permit, nor do I think that it is good to have a pemit that is only good for your own state. I think Texas, AR, LA, OK, FL and some other states have it right on the money when it comes to issuing licenses and having a large number of reciprocal states. It is therefore the responsibility of the permit holder to know the laws of the states they will be traveling in to keep themselves within the law.

    This is exactly the reason I made the phone call to the LA state police last week to verify the no gun sign laws in LA before sending the wife and her mom/sisters to Shreveport yesterday. I was happy that she was able to carry her new 642 all day without any issues.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #27
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    We need a model code adopted by all states or we need a Federal law that would bring uniformity.

    There are just way too many little twists and it is too painful to learn the hard way.

    Someone above pointed out NM only allows one. OK, you can't take it into a rest stop (considered a gov. bldg). One state you must display a permit, another never display a permit, a third, display when whatever. Another sometimes OC, another no hollow point, another can have in car but not on person/ or the other way around. Another, not on campus, another, it's ok on campus. In parks, not in parks. And so on.

    If driving laws were as distinctly different from one place to the next we couldn't travel. Maybe truckers would have to change drivers at each state border?

    If marriage and divorce laws were as distinctly different and sometimes not recognized in other locations, we could not travel.

    We need to push for a model law or a uniform Federal law and license.

    Purist aversion to either based on state's rights grounds won't cut it in a 21st century world. You can't pledge, "one nation indivisible" and mean it, while insisting on state's rights.

    Added, Farronwolf is right. Texas doesn't just hand them out and it is not particularly restrictive. TX, OK, AR, FL, have it about right.

  14. #28
    Member Array Magnum Mikie's Avatar
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    I just read this on another forum. It relates to this thread.

    __________________________________________________ __________

    http://tennessean.com/article/200905...gger+at+school

    By Mitchell Kline • The Tennessean • May 21, 2009
    Judge: Man might have been better off pulling trigger at school
    FRANKLIN — A Williamson County judge sentenced a Fairview man to 20 days in jail for handling a gun on school property -- and said the man might have been better off if he’d pulled the trigger.


    On Thursday, Tracy C. Clark, 37, told Circuit Court Judge James G. Martin III, that he’d gotten into a verbal altercation at Westwood Elementary School on Jan. 30, 2006 after his 9-year-old son’s basketball game. Clark said the father of rival player came to his truck and held a knife as if threatening to stab him.

    Clark, who had a handgun carry permit, said he told the man he had a gun and pulled a 9 mm handgun from the center console of his pickup truck and put it on the driver’s seat. The gun was not loaded and never left its holster, according to Clark.

    “I never brandished it,” Clark said. “I never showed it. I did not know what the best thing to do was.”

    Martin said under state law regulating weapons on school property, Clark might have avoided a conviction if he had actually pointed the gun or used it because that would have demonstrated self-defense.

    “There’s no question he was in a situation where a man pulled a knife on him,” Martin said. “It’s an extremely unusual statute… in the defense side of it. While it’s illegal to possess a firearm (on school grounds) it’s OK if you use it to defend yourself.”

    The law states that it is legal for an adult to bring a weapon to a school campus as long as it is kept in a vehicle and not handled. Martin said Clark admittedly handled the gun.


    Martin said he hopes his sentence sends a message that “if you carry a firearm on school property you are going to spend some time in jail.”


    Martin found Clark guilty of possession of a weapon on school property, a class B misdemeanor. The judge sentenced Clark to 20 days in jail and six months of probation, ordered him to take anger management classes and said he cannot possess or handle a firearm.

    “It’s ironic that, under the statute, if he’d have pointed it at him things would be different,” Martin said. “By his own testimony he didn’t display it or use it in self-defense.”

    In 2006, Circuit Court Judge Timothy Easter dismissed the charge against Clark, ruling he acted in self-defense. Last year, the state’s Court of Appeals ruled that Easter erred in dismissing the charge and remanded the case for reinstatement of the indictment.

    Assistant District Attorney Chris Vernon said he’d originally offered Clark the chance to plead guilty and serve one year of probation.

  15. #29
    Member Array vic40204's Avatar
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    wjh2657 I agree with you, always check other state and local laws that is very good advice.

    Thank You Vic.

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    When traveling not only do I research the laws for the states I will travel through but I also print them out along with the states reciprocity agreements, that way I have them as a ready reference.
    I do this too. It is good insurance.

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