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Reciprocity can be a recipe for disaster.

5K views 34 replies 31 participants last post by  oldogy 
#1 ·
With all the talk about reciprocity I have detected a real trap. many seem to get multiple non-resident permits (No classes required) and then demonstrate a lack of knowledge about local laws pertaining to carry. No matter what yor local laws nor the laws of the state from which you obtain your NR permit say, the local laws are in force. Make very,very sure you understand the local state laws when carrying into another state (see HandLaw sticky.)

Example: In Tennessee it is not brandishing if you show your weapon in its holster while adjusting your clothing (TN has OCC and CCW, with HCP)but in Texas, which allows almost anything with a weapon, it is an act of brandishing and can land you in deep trouble. Many other states have laws that can be tricky. A right to carry does not mean carrying any way you want to. You are governed by local laws. Get real familiar with sites on Handgun Law before carrying into another state. The permit/license is just a part of the carry system!
 
#2 ·
actually that's not true. In Texas you have to intentionally display your firearm in order for it to be considered brandishing. It would take a peace officer who is having a SERIOUSLY bad day to hem you up for accidental exposure of a firearm.:gah:
 
#3 ·
True point about knowing the local laws.

On a trip through Kansas last year, I made a note to myself NOT to stop at those turnpike gas stations or state-owned rest stops. I don't remember why, but it was due to something I read while researching KS's laws.

And it seems Oklahoma is much stricter about a gun being seen in a car's passenger compartment. I think it's strictly forbidden to have it visible.

IIRC, in Texas one MUST notify LEO if carrying, otherwise it might turn into a firearm-related offense that may affect carry status.

I also learned New Mexico only allows 1 concealed carry gun at a time. I guess that's fair, because surely the BG's will only be carrying 1 gun. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Handgunlaw.us is a good starting point for research, but I would visit the actual state sites before finalizing my research. I found a Missouri law issue that was left off the summary at handgunlaw.us
 
#17 ·
Funny how states like NJ and MD have the least restrictions on where you can carry, yet in OK and TX you have to tread on water... maybe it's because NJ and MD don't hand them out so they don't have to ban CC in certain places because it's already default illegal :twak:
 
#4 ·
I don't think that reciprocity creates a 'ton' of problems. If one is somewhat knowledgeabe of the laws of the state(s) 'visited' (and there is certainly enough online to find out) and uses common sense in going about daily routines...you'll be OK. :read1:


I'm definitely not suggesting anything illegal, but...if you stay concealed, it will certainly override any unintentional 'mistakes'...who will know?:ticking:

Keep in mind: Do I have to inform LE if stopped? :cop: Where/when can I carry around alcohol?:a35:
 
#5 ·
With all the talk about reciprocity I have detected a real trap.
I'm of the opinion that the trap is with ignorance of the applicable laws, not with reciprocity.
 
#22 ·
Yep.

However, it is not just the ignorance of the carrier -- IMHO.

Case in point -- I had an individual who teaches a class which qualifies one to meet VA's training requirement tell me that the difference in "recognition" and "reciprocity" was that in a State that only "recognizes" your permit you had to follow that State's law but in a State that has signed a mutual "reciprocity" agreement all you needed to do was follow the laws of the State that issued the permit. :aargh4:

Like any law, it is the individual's responsibility to know the applicable laws. Gun laws, income tax laws, possession and transport of Rx, travel with children, etc, etc, etc.

Can we?

You got to be kidding.

I know a man who followed the advice of a major tax preparer and got hit with major interest, penalties, etc.

But the alternative is unthinkable -- "Honest Officer, Judge, etc I had no idea that was wrong (against the Law)!"

OTOH, That's why I believe in Jury Nullification. :danceban:
 
#6 ·
With all the talk about reciprocity I have detected a real trap.
I see no trap in it. Anyone carrying a gun needs to research the laws where they are going to be carrying. If they don't and get into trouble it has nothing to do with reciprocity, it has to do lack of knowledge and research on their part.
 
#11 ·
.....Anyone carrying a gun needs to research the laws where they are going to be carrying. If they don't and get into trouble it has nothing to do with reciprocity, it has to do lack of knowledge and research on their part.

No disrespect to your post - but IMHO it is exactly this kind of acceptance of gun law ambiguity that the Brady Campaign and other virulent anti-gun groups are counting on.

As we placidly allow the anti-gunners to introduce more and more "reasonable" laws and technicalities into each political district, then the responsibility of trying to comply will become too burdensome. Thus, the anti-gunners will have defeated us simply by introducing and passing volumes of "reasonable", yet confusing, local laws.

We need to push for consistency and uniformity in gun laws, and hopefully promote sane, common sense regulations that a reasonable and prudent citizen can easily abide by. :smile:

-
 
#7 ·
These are very good points! I live in TN and that was written into our law so if the wind blows your jacket back getting out of the car exposing your gun the LEO can't get out of line with you, can it be technically construed as "open carry?" YES, but the legislatures intent was to protect the permit holder rather than provide an open carry in a crowded mall of sheep if you will. Now I absolutely believe that requiring a law abiding person to have a permit requiring renewal is a load of male bovine excrement (I do NOT disagree with a first time, ONE TIME, competency test, permit, background check or whatever you want to call it. After that let me alone and go catch bad guys). I feel the reciprocity agreements have grown way faster and larger than I ever expected! Let us not mess up what we have by becoming "unwelcome" guests in other states because we could not honor their requirements, we need to keep this thing rolling and some day down the line a ways we can flex some more muscle when a bulk of the states have solid agreements.
QUESTION: What happens to your home state permit if you take a hit in a reciprocity state???

Thanks, John
 
#16 ·
These are very good points! I live in TN and that was written into our law so if the wind blows your jacket back getting out of the car exposing your gun the LEO can't get out of line with you, can it be technically construed as "open carry?" YES, but the legislatures intent was to protect the permit holder rather than provide an open carry in a crowded mall of sheep if you will. Now I absolutely believe that requiring a law abiding person to have a permit requiring renewal is a load of male bovine excrement (I do NOT disagree with a first time, ONE TIME, competency test, permit, background check or whatever you want to call it. After that let me alone and go catch bad guys). I feel the reciprocity agreements have grown way faster and larger than I ever expected! Let us not mess up what we have by becoming "unwelcome" guests in other states because we could not honor their requirements, we need to keep this thing rolling and some day down the line a ways we can flex some more muscle when a bulk of the states have solid agreements.
QUESTION: What happens to your home state permit if you take a hit in a reciprocity state???

Thanks, John
That will depend on the violation and your state. Anything from nothing to a fine or possible revocation of your permit.
 
#9 ·
Most laws are made to keep you confused and put you at risk whenever or wherever. That's why I wear sunglasses most of the time....don't want to be accused of looking at anyone the wrong way.
 
#10 ·
When traveling not only do I research the laws for the states I will travel through but I also print them out along with the states reciprocity agreements, that way I have them as a ready reference.
 
#30 ·
I do this too. It is good insurance.
 
#12 ·
I too see no "trap" with reciprocity.

It is your responsibility to know the law. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse. It might, and I stress "might" be a mitigating factor, but it's not an excuse and I wouldn't count on a mitigating factor to excuse illegal behavior. It may, or may not, influence the sentencing portion of your adventures through the criminal justice system however.

Biker
 
#14 ·
I agree with Chevy-SS and think JEM102 proposes a good solution. Let us keep our heads up and look to the future. A model concealed carry system that is adopted by individual states would be ideal. It would be a lot of work and take a long time, but it would encourage more people to carry.
 
#21 ·
Here is my spin on this FWIW. In a perfect world the vast majority of honest citizens would be armed, crime would be low, and laws would be uniform and common sense. Until then, well kids we need to know our stuff.

Carrying a firearm comes with a tacit acknowledgment that you accept the responsibility to carry it lawfully and intelligently. One of the reasons that I love DC is that the mods do not allow discussion of lawbreaking! If you carry on your home turf you need to follow the rules; how much more do you need to follow the rules in someone else's? As an analogy, when you go to someone else's house for dinner do you follow your own rules or do you respect their rules in their home? Of course you would be a polite friend and do things their way!

Stay safe, stay armed, but with all that STAY LEGAL. Every state posts their revised statutes online; take the time to get familiar and know where you are going. As much as it chaps me when I head to CA I leave the firearm at home; when I visit my parents in NM it comes along for the ride though! Once we hit that border, then all NM laws apply and there isn't a cop in NM who is going to care one whit what AZ law is.
 
#23 ·
I have my Nevada permit, and 2 out of state permits, Utah and Florida, which lets me carry in over 30 states. When I plan to travel out of my home area, I check to see if I can carry there. I then review the laws of the area where I'm visiting. That's how I knew when visiting my home in Virginia, that I have to expose my gun when going into a restaurant. I don't know the laws in every state where I can carry via reciprocity, but I make sure that I know them before I will carry there.
 
#24 ·
Tom G sez...

I run a copy of the gun laws for each state I visit while on vacation and use it as a quick reference while in that state. It pays to be careful.
That's what I did on a recent trip to Michigan... print it up and read it on the plane/in the men's room/at the hotel/at the Denny's/whenever you get a chance...

:hand10:
 
#25 ·
I drove to Missouri with a friend last year to go hunting on his farm. Before leaving, I confirmed the reciprocity/recognition for my Ohio CHL, as well as general requirements. The only problem was Illinois, whose government has put itself in the role of "OSHA" for carjackers. I carried my Norinco M1911 IWB through Ohio and Indiana and up to the last stop before the Illinois border. I disarmed, unloaded my gun and placed it and the unloaded magazines in cases in the trunk.

When we crossed back into the United States outside of Saint Louis, I rearmed.

Other than being a potential victim in one state, there was no problem at all.
 
#27 ·
We need a model code adopted by all states or we need a Federal law that would bring uniformity.

There are just way too many little twists and it is too painful to learn the hard way.

Someone above pointed out NM only allows one. OK, you can't take it into a rest stop (considered a gov. bldg). One state you must display a permit, another never display a permit, a third, display when whatever. Another sometimes OC, another no hollow point, another can have in car but not on person/ or the other way around. Another, not on campus, another, it's ok on campus. In parks, not in parks. And so on.

If driving laws were as distinctly different from one place to the next we couldn't travel. Maybe truckers would have to change drivers at each state border?

If marriage and divorce laws were as distinctly different and sometimes not recognized in other locations, we could not travel.

We need to push for a model law or a uniform Federal law and license.

Purist aversion to either based on state's rights grounds won't cut it in a 21st century world. You can't pledge, "one nation indivisible" and mean it, while insisting on state's rights.

Added, Farronwolf is right. Texas doesn't just hand them out and it is not particularly restrictive. TX, OK, AR, FL, have it about right.
 
#28 ·
I just read this on another forum. It relates to this thread.

____________________________________________________________

http://tennessean.com/article/200905...gger+at+school

By Mitchell Kline • The Tennessean • May 21, 2009
Judge: Man might have been better off pulling trigger at school
FRANKLIN — A Williamson County judge sentenced a Fairview man to 20 days in jail for handling a gun on school property -- and said the man might have been better off if he’d pulled the trigger.


On Thursday, Tracy C. Clark, 37, told Circuit Court Judge James G. Martin III, that he’d gotten into a verbal altercation at Westwood Elementary School on Jan. 30, 2006 after his 9-year-old son’s basketball game. Clark said the father of rival player came to his truck and held a knife as if threatening to stab him.

Clark, who had a handgun carry permit, said he told the man he had a gun and pulled a 9 mm handgun from the center console of his pickup truck and put it on the driver’s seat. The gun was not loaded and never left its holster, according to Clark.

“I never brandished it,” Clark said. “I never showed it. I did not know what the best thing to do was.”

Martin said under state law regulating weapons on school property, Clark might have avoided a conviction if he had actually pointed the gun or used it because that would have demonstrated self-defense.

“There’s no question he was in a situation where a man pulled a knife on him,” Martin said. “It’s an extremely unusual statute… in the defense side of it. While it’s illegal to possess a firearm (on school grounds) it’s OK if you use it to defend yourself.”

The law states that it is legal for an adult to bring a weapon to a school campus as long as it is kept in a vehicle and not handled. Martin said Clark admittedly handled the gun.


Martin said he hopes his sentence sends a message that “if you carry a firearm on school property you are going to spend some time in jail.”


Martin found Clark guilty of possession of a weapon on school property, a class B misdemeanor. The judge sentenced Clark to 20 days in jail and six months of probation, ordered him to take anger management classes and said he cannot possess or handle a firearm.

“It’s ironic that, under the statute, if he’d have pointed it at him things would be different,” Martin said. “By his own testimony he didn’t display it or use it in self-defense.”

In 2006, Circuit Court Judge Timothy Easter dismissed the charge against Clark, ruling he acted in self-defense. Last year, the state’s Court of Appeals ruled that Easter erred in dismissing the charge and remanded the case for reinstatement of the indictment.

Assistant District Attorney Chris Vernon said he’d originally offered Clark the chance to plead guilty and serve one year of probation.
 
#31 ·
I do not view reciprocity as a trap at all. But I think it is an issue of individual responsibility. Each of us is responsibly to know the laws that govern carry in the state or location we happen to be in.

Carrying a gun isn't a game and it surely isn't something to be taken lightly. One should treat it seriously, because the law will if you do it in an illegal manner.
 
#32 ·
"We need a model code adopted by all states or we need a Federal law that would bring uniformity. "

Keep in mind that the power in Congress lies in the hands of the "old Machine" politicians from NY,MASS and IL. These would be the reps who would be drafting and manipulating any federal carry laws. You know the "carry law" in their home states- NO CARRY! They will argue that it would be much easier if other states would just adopt their laws. This also would give them a foot in the door for later Anti-gun laws. We don't need a federal law, leave that power in the states and take the time to read each state's laws.

The reform of state laws is the responsibility of gun owners in those states. Pressure local reps to make the laws compatible.
 
#33 ·
I travel all the time, and since I’m armed 24/7 I do not visit states that do not accept my Florida CCL…

As a CCL holder I know not to go to places of nuisance, Government building, and I never go to bars. If I’m not traveling via Motorhome and thus eating out allot, I check that states laws, to see if restaurants who serve adult beverage are allowed, but other than that, most states are similar.
 
#34 ·
That's basically my attitude..... On rare occasions while traveling on I70, I have to travel through IL...... so for that stretch of road I'm not "conveniently armed", that is guns and ammo are put away... As soon as I leave this gun hating state my handgun is strapped back on my hip....
 
#35 ·
Yeah, we need to be aware of the laws in the state we are visiting.
Case in point:
I was invited to a stay in a Kentucky state park a while back. I reasearched KY laws as to where CC with out of state permit was prohibited and found nothing prohibiting carry in KY state parks. I called the head of KY state parks and could get no immediate answer. I emailed KY State Police and received a reply stating that KY had no statues prohibiting carry in State Parks. Next day I got a call from someone in KY state park system telling me that CC was prohibited in KY state parks. So figure that one out. I tried to do my due dilegence and got conflicting answers.
I did not go.
It can be a trap.
oldogy
 
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