OK this happened last week. My daughter and her boyfriend (have 2 year old son together) are having problems getting along. She called the police on him because he had removed the batteries from the house phones so she couldn't talk to her friends. This is not the first time he has done this, or taken her cell phone from her. She was able to get her cell phone and call police, plus she called her mother and myself. We are divorced and both remarried.
So my wife and I drive to her trailer. When we get there sheriff and my Ex and her husband are already there. Sheriff is inside talking to my daughter and her BF. Ex and her husband are outside. They say the sheriff told them to wait outside.
While we are there a second sheriff deputy arrives. He goes in and talks to first for a few minutes then comes out with BF, talks to him on porch.
Anyways after a little while one of the deputies comes over to us and explains the situation. Long story short, since my daughter added the BF to the trailer tittle when he moved in, even though she bought the trailer on a loan she secured and paid they can't remove him without eviction paperwork.
During the course of the discussion the deputy ask who the daughters parents were since there were 4 of us standing there.
Now the question; In Michigan we are required to declare we are a concealed weapons permit holder when we have contact with LEO in performance of his duties.
I was not carrying at the time since I didn't want to bring a weapon into the situation. Since the officer did not ask for my ID I did not bring up the subject of concealed permit. Would the officer asking my relationship to my daughter be considered "official duty"?
In Michigan you are required to identify yourself as a CPL holder & your carry status.
As to the the OP, I think that unless the officer is asking for ID or if you are directly involved in an incident under investigation you should be in the clear. I deal with the occasional LEO on a casual basis fairly often and I can't imagine that they would even care when I am just saying "hello". That being said, when in doubt - declare.
Hopefully one of our LEO members can help on this.
Why would you feel compelled to tell him that you don't have a gun ? It doesn't affect his safety either way. I can't see how it matters at all.
I hope that your daughter is able to get away from the creep, before it goes from trying to isolate her to hitting her.
Yes, he got called there on duty so if he were to ask you for your ID he would be doing so in an "official manner". Now this varies from state to state, at that point I (Louisiana) am required by law to inform him of my permit whether or not I was carrying. Failure to do so would result in a temporary suspension of my permit. In your case, you are good to go since you weren't carrying nor did he ask for your ID.
Yes, he got called there on duty so if he were to ask you for your ID he would be doing so in an "official manner". Now this varies from state to state, at that point I (Louisiana) am required by law to inform him of my permit whether or not I was carrying. Failure to do so would result in a temporary suspension of my permit. In your case, you are good to go since you weren't carrying nor did he ask for your ID.
Duties of Permittees
The permit shall be retained by the permittee who shall immediately produce it upon the request of any law enforcement officer. Anyone who fails to do so shall be fined not more than one hundred dollars. Additionally, when any peace officer approaches a permittee in an official manner or with an identified purpose, the permittee shall:
Notify the officer that he has a weapon on his person;
Submit to a pat down;
Allow the officer to temporarily disarm him.
In reading the information above as carefully as I can, it seems to me that if I'm NOT armed I have no duty to inform the officer that I have a permit. I just called the person in charge at LSP and he agrees with that. If you are not armed it is not necessary to inform the officer in Louisiana that you have a permit. They are likely to change the wording on this soon to make that point clearer.
If you are required to tell him regardless of your actual carry status at the moment, then when he asks for ID you need to tell him. Until he asks for identification I wouldn't bring it up.
I am not a LEO (yet), I am in the academy and from what I have learned, in Utah I think you could be in hot water had they found out (even later) that you did not disclose your carry permit and status. If you have a duty to disclose wheather or not you are carrying at the time then you should. That is the law in Utah. They were obviously performing official duties, IMHO you absolutely should have disclosed when he first came to talk to you, even if they don't ask for your ID.
An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.[124]
So I guess if you are not CCing at the time, you have no duty to disclose. You should be good.
Wikipedia, I would take that with a grain of salt. Besides remember the OP is from MI so quoting other states does him no good.
From the Michigan web site:
Proper Conduct During Encounters with Police
Responsibilities of Individuals With a CCW License:
1. An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.
* Failure to disclose this information to a police officer carries the following penalties:
* First offense = State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CCW license suspension.
* Second offense = State Civil Infraction - $1000 fine and CCW license revocation.
2. An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall have the license in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
* Failure to possess CCW license when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and a $100.00 fine.
3. Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:
* His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
* His or her driver license or personal identification card
* Failure to show CCW license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.
4. A pistol carried in violation of numbers 1, 2, or 3 is subject to immediate seizure by a police officer.
* If a weapon is seized for failure to possess a CCW license while carrying a concealed pistol:
* Individual has 45 days in which to display their license to carry a concealed pistol to the law enforcement agency that seized the pistol and the pistol shall be returned.
* If the individual does not display their license to carry a concealed pistol within 45 days the pistol is subject to forfeiture.
To Ensure Safety During Police Encounters
If you are stopped by a law enforcement officer you should:
* Keep your hands where an officer can see them.
* Cooperate fully with the police officer.
* If you have a gun with you, tell the police officer as soon as possible.
* Do not make any quick movements, especially toward the weapon.
* If in a vehicle at night, turn on your vehicle's dome light.
In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others. The police officer will return the pistol at the end of the stop unless the individual is being charged with a violation of the act or any other law that allows for the weapon to be seized.
In most states your CPL is tied to your Driver's License record. If LEO asks for ID (he may run you) then you had better tell him when he asks for the ID. It may avoid a situation in which he doesn't know if you are carrying or not when he sees your CPL come up on your DL record. No harm in stating that you have a CPL and in this case that you aren't carrying a weapon.
Please forgive me for straying a bit from your original question, but my wife is a nationally recognized expert on Domestic Violence. I'm not much of an expert on anything that doesn't involve beer and pizza, but some of her knowlege has rubbed off.
Your daughter (and grandaughter) are in an extremely dangerous situation. The fact that the BF is removing the batteries from telephones and actively trying to keep her from contact with the outside world demonstrates that he's domineering and controlling and is a sign that warns of the likelihood of an escalating situation that could put the two of them in very real jeopardy of physical harm.
Please, ask her to get in contact with her local Domestic Violence program. They can provide information, counseling, guidance, advocacy and legal assistance, and emergency shelter should it become necessary.
Please don't delay. If you have any questions, PM me and I'm sure my wife would be willing to respond and expand on my comments.
Since you were not carrying you were o.k. in not informing. If you were carrying , you must inform as the LEO was engaged in an active investigation and was officially asking your part.
Out of this whole incident, I still think the situation between your daughter and her BF is far more important than whether or not you need to declare to an LEO.
Isolation is one of the first steps, but it's a VERY CLEAR indicator, and it WILL escalate. Make no mistake. If your daughter can call the national DV hotline and speak with someone there, she can remain anonymous, but they will help her create a SAFETY PLAN in case she needs to get out. There are shelters all over every state that can help in an emergency or crisis situation so your daughter and grandchild will be SAFE. There is no cost, and they will be able to help her receive counseling if she wants, job placement assistance, transportation (free bus passes), food, medical, etc.
Most DV state programs (at least the one in FL) will have an ADVOCATE PROGRAM in place where she can get an advocate assigned to her. I was an advocate in FL, but I did mainly shelter work/crisis calls. There are also advocates specifically designated to guide women like your daughter through the court system. They will meet her at the courthouse, take her to the specific floor or office where she will want to fill out a Temporary Order of Protection, and (literally sometimes) hold her hand through the entire process, from filling out the form to going before the judge that day to get the TRO. They will also be able to help her navigate through the ins and outs of the legal syatem as it pertains to her, orders or eviction, etc.
Please PLEASE urge her to seek help right away. I have seen this so many times and not to scare you, but it usually doesn't get better or go away on its own, it usually gets worse. Much worse.
PM me anytime if you want more info or to talk more about this.
I would tell just to so there isn't any surprises,. But then again if your not carrying,. I'm never in the situation so????? Glad it all worked out,. What was the outcome for the whole thing?
Speaking has someone who has "been there, done that" what you're being told about your daughter's situation is dead on. What the BF is doing will escalate and the longer she stays the harder it's going to be to get out. If he hasn't already, he will start creating distance/problems between your daughter and her family and friends, he will tell her how worthless and stupid she is, how lucky she is that he's willing to put up with her, and then the degradation and humiliation will really start.
Like I said, I've lived through it personally and I've seen it frequently as an EMT, and while no one wants to scare you...frankly, you probably should be. Your daughter (and grandchild) is in a dangerous situation and she is likely in denial. Please, if you haven't already, contact David and Bunny, get educated. See if you can get her talking to someone who's been through it and can give her the roadmap for where her life is going. Best wishes on a swift and safe resolution.
When in doubt, absolutely! The last thing you need is some overzealous young LEO jerking you around, over a “Mother May I” or “Simon Says” issue. However, as a rule or unless there is a requirement, I follow the "Don't ask - Don't tell" policy. :ziplip:
Regards,
Please heed the advice of those who've already responded. Your daughter is in a bad situation. We just had a double homicide-suicide this week that was the culmination of decades of abuse and threats that mostly never went reported and when reported, weren't acted upon. The writing on the wall had been there for years and years...
Now the question; In Michigan we are required to declare we are a concealed weapons permit holder when we have contact with LEO in performance of his duties. I was not carrying at the time since I didn't want to bring a weapon into the situation. Since the officer did not ask for my ID I did not bring up the subject of concealed permit. Would the officer asking my relationship to my daughter be considered "official duty"?
I would say he was talking to you in an official capacity. However since you were not carrying you were not required to notify him.
From handgunlaws.us
Once issued, a concealed pistol permit allows a person to carry anywhere in the state except where legally prohibited or in the so called "gun free zones" specified in section 5(o) of the act. The holder must also declare to a peace officer who stops the person that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol. The law also imposes an implied consent to submit to alcohol or chemical testing if a police officer suspects a person is carrying a concealed pistol under the influence.
Kinda, sorta, and yes. Due to the nature of the call the LEO was responding to, he was probably in a high alert state. Here in MI we are required to disclose, and in this situation I would have told him I am a CPL holder,and that I was not carrying at the time.
Just a couple days ago I called my local PD after finding what looked like the partial contents of someone's purse or wallet, scattered around the neighborhood. Our interaction occured entirely on my private property, and I was the one that called them. When the officers arrived I asked them if I was required to diclose in an instance like this. The first officer was a bit of a funny guy and joking said he would have to cuff me, I responded by turning my back to him and placing my hands behind my back. After a few laughs, they both said, in this situation, "by law" it wasn't necessary, but they both appreciated knowing, and the respect shown by letting them know.
I look at it this way, show a LEO respect and you'll likely get the same in return.:smile:
You have a permit to carry one, but who cares?
I highly doubt any government officials will get their panties in a wrinkle because you didn't declare a piece of paper.
Now move on, and find something constructive to do.
That sounds like classic abusive behavior. You should offer to let her live with you while she runs eviction paperwork on the creep. She could get seriously hurt if he realizes that his options are running out. Abusive boyfriends/spouses are serious business.
In Ohio we have to declare even if we are not armed. I would have told the second Deputy when he arrived. They can really mess with if you don't around here.
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