If this really happened, you need to stay out of that neighborhood.
This is a discussion on a what if based on a real experience within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is going to be somewhat wordy but I will try to summarize. This was a key situation which helped tipped me to decide to ...
This is going to be somewhat wordy but I will try to summarize. This was a key situation which helped tipped me to decide to get a cpl.
I was a friends Halloween party near a campus, but not on it. I had some to drink but likely I would not have if I had a cpl. anyway here are the details.
The house only had one real entrance and that was on the back porch. Throughout most of the night they had some people posted on the back porch monitoring who was coming in and out of the party. Anyway later in the evening I was out back getting some air and talking to some people are the far side of the porch. I am not sure what happened to the people watching the door but they were not around. 2 guys came up on the back porch who were not wearing costumes and seemed to be looking around alot as the entered the house. This made me suspicious so after a bit I entered the house to see what the situation was. I observed one of the guys coming down the stairs from the top story where no one was at. I also observed his friend being kind o rough with some girls so I informed the home tenants about the situation and they asked them to leave since no one knew who they were. After an extended argument in which the home owners were more than polite and asked them to please leave without raising their voices or resorting to cursing as the 2 individuals had they finally left. about 20 minutes later I am on the back porch again and one of the actual party guests runs up the stairs and tells everyone to get inside. We all get inside and as we shut and lock the door a group of 10-15 guys come up on the porch complete with crowbars. They immediately come to the door and break the window right next to it and try to reach in and unlock it. We call 911 while a couple big guys keep their hands away from the lock. They then proceed to break the door off the hinges with some guys on our side holding it in the frame. At this point I go into survival mode and start searching kitchen drawers for a weapon and end up with a lousy thin steak knife... but its better than nothing. The cops finally show up and they scatter.
My question is if I had been carrying what would have been the right move? I had a situation where there were way too many people to keep track of and some of them may have been carrying firearms as well. The last thing I think I would want to do is draw on one and have the group of them all start unloading into the back wall of the house. Then again maybe if I was carrying and drew it might make them stop. If they had breached the back door I think there would have been no question what to do but my question is what to do before hand.
If this really happened, you need to stay out of that neighborhood.
Party,booze and people make for easy trouble. Introduce a gun into this and you have real trouble. I was young once,I understand why we involve ourselves in these situations. Looking back now, I see how easy it is for things to get out of hand. I do not believe there is an easy answer to a situation like this. If you want to party and/or go to bars, there is a big risk that comes with it.
Not the kind of party/area you should frequent--only asking for trouble when you do!
"It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith
Tough situation. I kind of agree with the others. You should probably try to avoid situations like this and 'frat house' type environments. As to the actual predicament, I think you did fine and I'm not sure drawing a gun would've been the wisest course of action. Best to retreat when confronted by groups. You should have taken the other guests (or at minimum yourself) and gotten out of dodge. I'm sure the place had windows. Don't stick around somewhere when you think you might have to draw.
"Criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot."
Someone on the boards says it better 1st rule of a gunfight - don't be there.
I'm on a pda so I can't give the exact quote but you get the idea.
Colt 1911 New Agent, CTLaser
You do not work for them, they work for you.
Based on your description, I read no reference that this party was in the ghetto. I believe it’s a shame that you may have to stay away from parties or other social events that is part of a young person’s life.
Anyway, it’s clear that once confronted with a desperate situation, your survival skills took over as you scrabbled for a weapon. Your pursuit for a permit is reasonable, although you may find that you’ll go further out of your way to avoid such situations in the future.
“Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
~ Stephen King
As others have already said, the best thing to do is avoid situations that put you in harms way.
That being said: In the situation you described I'd have gotten everyone behind me, so I knew if I had to fire there were no friendlies in front of me. I would not fire unless the door was breached and they entered. You have them in a bottle neck, and I would guess that since they were running in a pack the first shot or two would have scattered them (typical response for hyenas). Once the threat is neutralized call a lawyer, your going to need one.
It has always been my experience that, booze, young male egos and firearms do not mix well. Even a justified shooting in a college party environment would more than likely be looked down on by LE as well as the community, so I'd suggest an adjustment to your extra curriculum activities, should you decide to carry.
Last edited by John Luttrel; June 1st, 2009 at 11:26 PM. Reason: fat fingers
I suspect that if you had been armed and shot someone the prosecutor would claim that you could have retreated. I was not your home, and evidently you were not attacked. Anyplace where you have to post guards to keep others out is no place I would want to be.
The homeowners were in a different position. If I were you I would stay away from such places and such parties. It does sound like a rough neighborhood. If you were to shoot someone in such a circumstance it would cost you a lot of money for lawyers, and you might go to jail anyway.
like I used to tell my now 42 year old son when he was younger." If you find your self in trouble you put your self there. Hang with the wrong people and trouble will find you."
This particular area was not really a ghetto but it was a college neighborhood. The "guards" were really there more to make sure people we didn't know weren't allowed in for security but also just to make sure party crashers in general didn't show up, not because they thought something like this would happen. This happened several years ago and I am too old to hang out at events such as this so its not as much of a concern for me at this point. Its just a scenario I wondered if I had not been drinking and was carrying what would a correct course of action be. Once the police showed up we did leave immediately but at the time they were there they had people all around the house watching the doors and windows. It was actually pretty organized for a group of thugs. My immediate concern was to inform the people I was with in the other part of the house, get away from the exterior walls in case they had firearms and then find a weapon in case they made it inside.
Sounds to me like this situation would have been a no win for all involved had a firearm been introdiced, guns and booze don't mix, bad decisions are made, ones you can never take back. Best to avoid situation in the future, or at the very least retreat if you find yourself there again.
I guess I'm going to be in the minority here but just based on a few of the pertinent points, door was locked, 10 to 15 outside with weapons (crowbars count), breaking window and trying to gain access to a building that isn't their residence equals an armed home invasion. You life was in jeopardy and the threat of severe bodily harm or death was present. In most states that meets the requirements for the justified use of deadly force.
Would you be legally justified, probably.
Would it go to trial? Most probably.
Would you win? I would hope so, but it'd be an experience.
All the other points as to drinking, neighborhood, etc are not the critical points although they play a part. You are entitled to protect yourself in both good places and bad.
I think you did as well as possible by looking for something to even the odds, good "what if".
You know what really surprises me about a lot of people's response to this? They all say you must have been in a bad neighborhood or you were in somewhere you shouldn't be. Yet this group is usually the first to say that bad guys strike EVERYWHERE! Now, like somebody said the party had people watching the door and that seems odd in a nice neighborhood, but who knows man. This could have been in a very nice neighborhood. Some BG caught wind of the party through the grapevine and thought they'd be able to take advantage of it. Maybe you were in a bad area. I dunno.
The only other thing I could say is what somebody else said. Maybe try and find a window that would be easy to get people out of. But you don't know if there are others waiting outside the other side of the house. Tough place to be in.
Protection is a responsibility not just a right.