Meth addict at Tullys, Seattle

Meth addict at Tullys, Seattle

This is a discussion on Meth addict at Tullys, Seattle within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My friend and I decided to meet at a Tully's on Broadway in Seattle. It is between Broadway and Pike opposite the QFC. I love ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array wolfshead's Avatar
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    Meth addict at Tullys, Seattle

    My friend and I decided to meet at a Tully's on Broadway in Seattle. It is between Broadway and Pike opposite the QFC.
    I love the place because it has free wi-fi and the coffee is better than Starbucks. The place is usually never crowded, you'll see mostly a student or two studying or surfing the web.

    So I order myself a Matte latte and am nibbling on my Citrus lemon cake. I get a table in the far end which was hidden from most of the store but was visible to the entrance. I do that so no one can peek over my shoulder to see what I am doing. Most of my work is limited.

    I look around and there are about 3 people in the cafe. A large guy with a beard reading a newspaper in front of me, a student doing her homework and another guy with a funny mohawk filling out his resume.

    Suddenly I hear loud noises.This white guy in his mid 40s starts yelling and slamming his hand on the counter. He has a dollar and keeps calling the server a B****. Then he says he was fighting the Japanese in WW2 and then the Koreans. I hate people who pretend to be war veterans and then demand special treatment. If he was a real vet, I would have bought him a coffee and whatever he wanted, no questions asked.

    He keeps pacing back and forth, and the lady behind the counter starts dialing 911. A minute goes by and no sirens.

    All this time, my friend and I have our sights on this guy. My friend whispers, "Don't pull anything unless he does".
    My friend carries a Kimber Ultra Carry.

    The big guy in front of us realized we were armed and we could visibly see him shake and start packing his stuff to leave. No one in the store did a thing. Everyone was just normal like nothing happened. I guess this is a common occurence in Capitol Hill?

    So the guy is still yelling, "I come back there and get you", and he begins to reach for something under his oversized jacket.
    At this time, my friend and I both reach for our guns, and get up, hand secured on them still not drawing. We suddenly caught his gaze and he stopped and ran out.

    We waited another 10 minutes after that and no cop showed up. We left after that. I didn't call 911 again because the girl there already had.

    I don't know if it was worth it to detain him? How would we detain him without cuffs? Should we have had cuffs or does that amount to impersonation of an LEO? There is a risk to detain addicts there because of HIV and other diseases they have. I did have pepper spray on my keychain, but I know if I had used it, everyone there would be in tears and coughing for a while.

    Capitol Hill is a scary place!
    Vince K
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  2. #2
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    I don't know if it was worth it to detain him? How would we detain him without cuffs? Should we have had cuffs or does that amount to impersonation of an LEO? I did have pepper spray on my keychain, but I know if I had used it, everyone there would be in tears and coughing for a while.
    Not a good idea to try for several reasons. One, technically he what he did was stupid but probably not more than a misdemeanor.

    No ones life was in danger at that time.

    The fact that he was all mouth and no action was proved when he saw two guys stand up and he bailed.

    The best outcome was the one that took place
    He left.
    No one harmed.

    It doesn't get any better than that, short of an LEO response.
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    It sounds to me like you handled the situation well. I may have (loudly) said something to the server to let her know that I wasn't going to allow her to be assaulted, but then again I wasn't there to wholly "size up" the situation.

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    Unless it's an outright felony, you can't hold him...you're not a cop.

    Anyone high on *)%$#)&^? is capable of being extremely dangerous and a handful for a whole crew of cops...not something to become involved with unless bodily harm was obviously happening or about to happen (thinking about the girl behind the counter).

    Sounds like you wisely held back, and your actions caused him to leave...all's well that ends well.
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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfshead View Post
    So the guy is still yelling, "I come back there and get you", and he begins to reach for something under his oversized jacket.
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    No ones life was in danger at that time.
    Until he threatened a believable violent attack in the not-too-distant future.

    A step, gumption, reaching for what might well have been a weapon (based on his demeanor, physical rage, body language, and motion under the jacket in a manner that appeared distinctly like ... In short, it could have blown sideways in another second.

    The fact that he was all mouth and no action was proved when he saw two guys stand up and he bailed.
    Which wasn't known at the time, until such time as he fled.

    OP: Kudos on your actions and merely showing you were absolutely aware of what where his missteps were leading.

    The best outcome was the one that took place
    He left.
    No one harmed.
    Absolutely. Though, the staff at the shop should remain on their toes for a time. If wonder-boy remembers the store and meant what he threatened, there could be trouble.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfshead View Post
    My friend and I decided to meet at a Tully's on Broadway in Seattle. It is between Broadway and Pike opposite the QFC.
    I love the place because it has free wi-fi and the coffee is better than Starbucks. The place is usually never crowded, you'll see mostly a student or two studying or surfing the web.

    So I order myself a Matte latte and am nibbling on my Citrus lemon cake. I get a table in the far end which was hidden from most of the store but was visible to the entrance. I do that so no one can peek over my shoulder to see what I am doing. Most of my work is limited.

    I look around and there are about 3 people in the cafe. A large guy with a beard reading a newspaper in front of me, a student doing her homework and another guy with a funny mohawk filling out his resume.

    Suddenly I hear loud noises.This white guy in his mid 40s starts yelling and slamming his hand on the counter. He has a dollar and keeps calling the server a B****. Then he says he was fighting the Japanese in WW2 and then the Koreans. I hate people who pretend to be war veterans and then demand special treatment. If he was a real vet, I would have bought him a coffee and whatever he wanted, no questions asked.

    He keeps pacing back and forth, and the lady behind the counter starts dialing 911. A minute goes by and no sirens.

    All this time, my friend and I have our sights on this guy. My friend whispers, "Don't pull anything unless he does".
    My friend carries a Kimber Ultra Carry.

    The big guy in front of us realized we were armed and we could visibly see him shake and start packing his stuff to leave. No one in the store did a thing. Everyone was just normal like nothing happened. I guess this is a common occurence in Capitol Hill?

    So the guy is still yelling, "I come back there and get you", and he begins to reach for something under his oversized jacket.
    At this time, my friend and I both reach for our guns, and get up, hand secured on them still not drawing. We suddenly caught his gaze and he stopped and ran out.

    We waited another 10 minutes after that and no cop showed up. We left after that. I didn't call 911 again because the girl there already had.

    I don't know if it was worth it to detain him? How would we detain him without cuffs? Should we have had cuffs or does that amount to impersonation of an LEO? There is a risk to detain addicts there because of HIV and other diseases they have. I did have pepper spray on my keychain, but I know if I had used it, everyone there would be in tears and coughing for a while.

    Capitol Hill is a scary place!
    A citizen Arrest is:
    The forcible detaining of an individual suspected of having committed a crime by a person who is not a police or otherwise certified law enforcement officer, such as a private citizen, a private security firm employee or a store employee or cashier, and without the authority of an arrest warrant issue from a court of law.

    The authority for physically detaining another person varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but in most cases, involves the surrender of the suspect to the police as soon as possible as well as use of only such reasonable force as is necessary to contain the individual and prevent escape.

    Using excessive force may expose the arresting person to a charge of assault or a tort liability claim, although some states were quite liberal in terms of encouraging the use of deadly force in some situations.

    ... common law rule whereby a private citizen may effectuate an arrest under two circumstances: there is a felony being committed in his presence, or when a felony has in fact been committed whether or not in his presence and the arrester has reasonable ground (probable cause) to believe the person he arrests has committed it; or a misdemeanor is being committed in the presence or view of the arrester which amounts to a breach of the peace....

    Some American states specify the crimes for which a citizens arrest is allowed (eg. public drunkenness).


    The forcible detaining of an individual suspected of having committed a crime by a person who is not a police or otherwise certified law enforcement officer, such as a private citizen, a private security firm employee or a store employee or cashier, and without the authority of an arrest warrant issue from a court of law.

    The authority for physically detaining another person varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but in most cases, involves the surrender of the suspect to the police as soon as possible as well as use of only such reasonable force as is necessary to contain the individual and prevent escape.

    Using excessive force may expose the arresting person to a charge of assault or a tort liability claim, although some states were quite liberal in terms of encouraging the use of deadly force in some situations (see, for example, Dumb, Crazy or Stupid Laws Around the World).

    In US v Atwell, the Maryland Court referred to the:

    ... common law rule whereby a private citizen may effectuate an arrest under two circumstances: there is a felony being committed in his presence, or when a felony has in fact been committed whether or not in his presence and the arrester has reasonable ground (probable cause) to believe the person he arrests has committed it; or a misdemeanor is being committed in the presence or view of the arrester which amounts to a breach of the peace....

    In short, you probably acted correctly by not brandishing a weapon.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfshead View Post


    We waited another 10 minutes after that and no cop showed up. We left after that. I didn't call 911 again because the girl there already had.
    glad you can count on a speedy police response. . .:)

  8. #8
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    Well done...that barista should at least have bought you another mocha latte! :)
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  9. #9
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    I would agree, Capital Hill is a scary place along with some other places in Seattle...

    Good Job at staying aware and keeping your wits.

  10. #10
    Member Array wolfshead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinistrMalic View Post
    Well done...that barista should at least have bought you another mocha latte! :)
    She didn't see us reaching for our guns, the curved sidewall was partially blocking her view. The only guy who saw us reach was the large guy sitting right in front of us. We left in total stealth mode. I am glad I didn't appear on the 11 o'clock news.
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  11. #11
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    On the back of my permit it clearly states my permit does not give me arrest powers. I have always been under the impression it also means I do not have the right to detain, if the BG wants to run, then let him. Once the threat has de-escalated, the firearm should be holstered, and resume as normal, since any imminent danger has passed, no?

  12. #12
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    Washington law states
    "(1)No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.
    (2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense."
    9A.16.110

    That gives a rather large margin of what you can legally do. IMO you did the right thing under the situation, but if necessary you could also have detained him.
    The only mention of anything like citizen arrest in WA code I know of is RCW 9A.16.020
    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
    .....
    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;
    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
    I dont know of anything in WA common law, but that seems pretty clear to me. You were in the green even if you needed to detain him. In fact you can even throw them in your car and drive them to the local precinct if necessary. It would take a lot for me to do that though. Rather just keep them on the ground and wait for the calvery.

    Source

  13. #13
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    Meth addicts are scary. There are dozens of vagrants in downtown Spokane and numerous more of Spokane's most "outstanding citizens" floating around. Some must have jobs and families, but the drugs seem to ruin their lives. Drug addicts seem to always be robbing pharmacies too. They run low on supplies and have to leave their hole to get more...

    No fight is a good fight. Any time you put your hands on someone or detain them against their will opens you up to civil lawsuits. They may be baseless, but they can still be a pain in the rear.

    The other day, I had a drugged up looking guy in the middle of the street just after I parallel parked. My significant other and I saw him acting oddly and I told her to keep put. We sat in the car with the doors locked- he came over and yelled, "are you laughing at me...what you doing...get out here". He was really agitated. I just turned the key and drove away...

    An armed encounter with a drugged up meth head is high on my Spokane Risk Assessment.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaCCW View Post
    On the back of my permit it clearly states my permit does not give me arrest powers. I have always been under the impression it also means I do not have the right to detain, if the BG wants to run, then let him. Once the threat has de-escalated, the firearm should be holstered, and resume as normal, since any imminent danger has passed, no?


    true but you already have the power arrest, everyone does cops are only charged with it as a job fulltime :P its common law, but not a good idea if you make a mistake you dont have qualified immunity like a LEO and you can be charged for kidnapping etc
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    Hey, nobody got hurt and everybody walked away; To me you did the right thing, don't try to second guess or armchair quarterback it.

    I would not get into arresting or detaining, that weapon is to defend your life and that of others (your family, etc.) we have LEOs for that.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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