CCW in Kansas Signs

CCW in Kansas Signs

This is a discussion on CCW in Kansas Signs within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In reading the statutes on Handgunlaw.us, it points out that business can restrict carry, "Also changed with HB 2528, business owners (both public and private) ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array bigdogtx's Avatar
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    CCW in Kansas Signs

    In reading the statutes on Handgunlaw.us, it points out that business can restrict carry, "Also changed with HB 2528, business owners (both public and private)
    may continue to post their buildings to restrict the concealed carry of
    firearms, but parking lots are no longer allowed to be posted."

    Is there a requirement for signage in order to be "posted"? Can they put up the Circle Beretta, just put up a simple "sign", etc.?

    If you could include the quoted statute, that would be great.

    Thanks.


  2. #2
    Member Array Geno's Avatar
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    Yes, the signage in Kansas has to as in "shall" be of a ceritan size and color, etc. It is all clearly spelled out in the Kansas AG's website. If the signage is not up to snuff, there are several of us that will walk on by it if we need to.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    If they restrict the concealed carry of firearms, would that include the open carry of firearms? I was in Kansas yesterday and open carried for my first time. Pittsburg, Fort Scott, Edgerton, Baldwin City, and Lawrence. Two Wal Marts, and a few gas stations/quicky marts. I'm used to seeing some non-carry friendly signs around here in the home state, but didn't see any in the places I went in Kansas, and I didn't have any issues.

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    It is supposed to be the sign you indicate in the OP. However, the AG has also stated that if a business person posts a non-approved sign that the business person is indicating an intent to prohibit carry on his/her property. So while the law says that it must be the approved sign, the reality may be that any sign is appropriate. I am not aware of any case law on this as of yet. I've seen several screwy signs, including a revolver with a slash through it.

    The safe answer is that any sign indicates that carry is prohibited on the property. Though as far as I am aware, the case law indicates that the AG sign is the one you must obey. As Geno indicates, many folks will walk past the non-AG signs. I just go to a different store. I don't want the potential hassle, and I don't want my money going to anyone who intends to deny my right to carry.

    http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/con...rrysignage.pdf

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    Yes, the signage in Kansas has to as in "shall" be of a ceritan size and color, etc. It is all clearly spelled out in the Kansas AG's website. If the signage is not up to snuff, there are several of us that will walk on by it if we need to.
    And when you get busted you will be called "The test Case"

    Quote Originally Posted by KSCarry View Post
    It is supposed to be the sign you indicate in the OP. However, the AG has also stated that if a business person posts a non-approved sign that the business person is indicating an intent to prohibit carry on his/her property. So while the law says that it must be the approved sign, the reality may be that any sign is appropriate. I am not aware of any case law on this as of yet. I've seen several screwy signs, including a revolver with a slash through it.

    The safe answer is that any sign indicates that carry is prohibited on the property. Though as far as I am aware, the case law indicates that the AG sign is the one you must obey. As Geno indicates, many folks will walk past the non-AG signs. I just go to a different store. I don't want the potential hassle, and I don't want my money going to anyone who intends to deny my right to carry.

    http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/con...rrysignage.pdf
    And you, like me, KSCARRY do not want to be called "The test Case."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    If they restrict the concealed carry of firearms, would that include the open carry of firearms? I was in Kansas yesterday and open carried for my first time. Pittsburg, Fort Scott, Edgerton, Baldwin City, and Lawrence. Two Wal Marts, and a few gas stations/quicky marts. I'm used to seeing some non-carry friendly signs around here in the home state, but didn't see any in the places I went in Kansas, and I didn't have any issues.
    Ram Rod, I am not sure but in Kansas open carry is more city by city type thing. I only see city that I am surprized there was not a man with a gun call and a second that it would not have surprized me if it happened (both have a State University in them). I am also surprized that the Wal Marts did not have an issue with your open carry.

    I know that unless things have changed, you do not want to open carry in KCK or Wichita to name two. I know Wichita has a law aganist OC and I think KCK does also.

  6. #6
    Member Array doctruptwn's Avatar
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    Ramrod didn't have any problem because he wasn't in Wichita or KCK. These smaller towns People aren't afraid of guns they aren't surprised to see them so when they do they don't freak about it.

    Acording to the law There is only one approved sign, it is to be no less than 8" square with a graphic no less than 6" containing a pic of a Barretta 92/M9. Now the other side of that is they have said thet the intent of the sign is what it is. But I think a good lawyer would have no problem beating it. I just can't afford one to try.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    When I contacted the KS AGs office, they would not give a black and white answer about signage. So....unless it's done in Crayon, I assume you don't want my business if you put up any no guns sign.
    I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.

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    Member Array Geno's Avatar
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    If I'm a test case so be it. I'm prepared to go to jury trial if need be. The other day I walked past a clear (not white as required) background sign that was about one third of the size that is required for the place to be legally posted. Fact is that I did not see it until I was on my way out of the store. I do try not to do business with businesses with the gunbuster signs, but in my case it may require a round trip drive of 80 or 90 miles to find similar products. YMMV

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    It has to be an "approved AG sign"..... I plan to follow the law.

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    I'm kinda suprised that the SWAT team didn't come after Ramrod in Lawrence. That's the liberal capital of KS there.

    I know you can't open carry in Shawnee County (Topeka)either. Definately not within the Topeka city limits, but elsewhere OC is prohibited in the county unless you are engaged in hunting or fishing.

    There are plenty of no carry signs in Topeka. Some signs have a slash through a Beretta, so I carry my 1911 in those places and then if it's one of the slash through the 1911 signs, I switch to my Beretta. (just kidding of course)

    doctruptwn is right though, in most smaller towns in KS people would not bat an eye if they see someone with a gun. It's considered "normal" to be a gun owner in KS, unless you live in one of the big city blue counties. Even then, it still considered normal by most folks.

    Heck, I live in one of those blue counties and have had moms at my daughters girlscout and cheerleading events say things like, "They need to get more people to shoot all these deer around here. There are just too many of them; they're everywhere." You have to remember that even in the cities in KS, most people are not more than one generation removed from the farm. Most middle aged people either grew up on the farm or spent time on the farm with their grandparents. Guns don't scare people when they have been exposed to them in ways other than driveby shootings in the big city.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  11. #11
    New Member Array EODLTC's Avatar
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    KS Approved signage does not require a specific gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by doctruptwn View Post
    Acording to the law There is only one approved sign, it is to be no less than 8" square with a graphic no less than 6" containing a pic of a Barretta 92/M9. Now the other side of that is they have said thet the intent of the sign is what it is. But I think a good lawyer would have no problem beating it. I just can't afford one to try.
    There is no specific gun for the signage. Only that the depiction of the gun be solid black in color. Violating the "approved" signage will get you a CCH violation. While proprieters with improper or no signage may request you leave, you are not in violation of the KS CCH laws just because you entered. If you refuse to leave after they ask, then the whole criminal trespassing thing gets started.

  12. #12
    New Member Array KCBOUND06's Avatar
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    Post AG Appropriate signage

    Adding to the discussion here about what's legal and what's not regarding businesses posting their own version of the "no concealed carry allowed here" sign here's what I've done.

    Today I sent a rather long and well written email to the newsdesk of the Topeka Capital Journal, LJWorld in Lawrence, the KC Star newspaper, and channel 5 KCTV5, with that same question. Are businesses that post signs OTHER than the one the AG's office says is the ONLY one that's legal, really legal or binding. I'm hoping one of them will pick up a story on it and get to the bottom of it before someone becomes a test case after they've been arrested.

    As I interpret it the 8x8 sign, etc., is the ONLY legal sign to follow EXCEPT if the other conditions apply; i.e., state office building, police station, etc. That also means the signs at rest stops on I-70 and on the front doors to Lawrence Memorial Hospital are not legal. It would seem like such a simple answer but since law enforcement has to make a decision if someone pushes the issue I tend to think they will error on the side of caution and site you anyway. Having been an LEO the thought process is "well it may not be the AG's sign but you can clearly understand it's meaning." Unfortunately the real test will probably be in court until the AG amends it's definition or clearly states any other signs are not legal.

  13. #13
    New Member Array KCBOUND06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EODLTC View Post
    There is no specific gun for the signage. Only that the depiction of the gun be solid black in color. Violating the "approved" signage will get you a CCH violation. While proprieters with improper or no signage may request you leave, you are not in violation of the KS CCH laws just because you entered. If you refuse to leave after they ask, then the whole criminal trespassing thing gets started.
    That's how I see it. In my opinion you're perfectly legal and can ignore their version of the sign until they push it. At that point it's not really a gun issue but a trespassing issue, and as we all know businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. That's how I plan to play it.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EODLTC View Post
    There is no specific gun for the signage. Only that the depiction of the gun be solid black in color.
    Not debating the rest of your answer, only the above portion. There is a specific graphic which depicts only a specific firearm graphic as indicated here:
    K.A.R. 16-11-7. Signs. (a) Each sign posted pursuant to either paragraph (a)(2) or paragraph (a)(3) of L. 2006, ch. 210, § 8, and amendments thereto, shall contain the graphic in the document titled “personal and family protection act:: required signage for K.A.R. 16-11-7,” dated October 19, 2006, and hereby adopted by reference.
    The document referenced in the quote is located here and the only authorized graphic is on the last page of the document.

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    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    If they restrict the concealed carry of firearms, would that include the open carry of firearms? I was in Kansas yesterday and open carried for my first time. Pittsburg, Fort Scott, Edgerton, Baldwin City, and Lawrence. Two Wal Marts, and a few gas stations/quicky marts. I'm used to seeing some non-carry friendly signs around here in the home state, but didn't see any in the places I went in Kansas, and I didn't have any issues.
    Ram Rod -- the authorized sign applies to, and bears a legal consequence in regards to, concealed carry only. While most of Kansas is open carry legal, as stated before some cities aren't and the problem comes with knowing where it is and isn't. Assuming you are in a city that does not have a local law against OC, then walking past a no guns sign or even a legal no CCH sign while OCing would have no force of law. I would have to assume though, that it would get a quick request from management that you leave and should you refuse to do so, would then result in a trespass charge.

    To the general discussion of whether a non-approved sign bears force of law on a licensed CCH holder, I can only state my intentions as there is currently no case law. If I see an illegal sign and can do my business at some other location, that is the choice I will make. If this is the only location that I can do my required business, I will lock my firearm in the truck and take care of business as quickly as possible. I will not knowingly walk past a no guns sign, legal or not, with my concealed firearm. If the sign is of a type or is placed in such a way that I did not observe the sign before entering, I may end up in court but I can at least make a good argument about the non-authorized sign/placement without committing perjury at the same time. I firmly believe that any posted sign, legal or not, has made that business's intent perfectly clear and it is my intention not to let them have any of my money if at all possible.

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