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Condition Orange at CCW class today!

10K views 117 replies 80 participants last post by  dukalmighty 
#1 ·
Took my CCW class today. Lots of folks who looked unfamiliar with their guns. The class had 33 people in it, so we had to wait our turn to qualify. We were gathered in a small room looking through the glass at the range area when I noticed 2 young ladies fidgeting with a semi-automatic. One of them was holding it, while the other attempted to show her how it worked. I was swept by the muzzle twice in quick succession, and the 3rd time one lady was able to pull the slide back and the one holding the gun pulled the trigger! I told her in the most stern voice that I could muster "Young Lady, you just pointed that gun at me and pulled the trigger. If you cannot control the direction of the muzzle, you need to put it down!" I looked at the range officer, who was paying very little attention to us, and he just kinda shrugged. The 2 young ladies gave me dirty looks and muttered something under their breath. I just wanted to remind those here who have yet to take their class that they should be very aware of those around them at all times, but especially when surrounded by people with new guns and no clue as to their use. If I had been running the class, they would have left without a certificate today. Instead they cheated off of each others papers during the written test, and are out there somewhere armed and dangerous. Protect yourself at all times! :frown:
 
#4 ·
You missed out on a perfect opportunity to teach these 2 females the rules in a nice friendly manner. You even had a good reason for butting into their business (as they would see it).

It even coulda been fun and you coulda made a couple of nice friends.

But, sadly you didn't. What you did was enforce the stereotype that gun guys are obnoxious rude brutes.
 
#75 ·
And what evidence....



leads your attorney mind to deduce that Mr. Bear was obnoxious?Assuming that his recounting of his language is accurate,he was in my most humble non attorney opinion quite civil,and in fact righteuosly indignant that an adult(ostensibly)would behave in such an incompetent and dangerous manner.Your advice to 'molly coddle' the ladies is absurd!:hand1:
 
#65 ·
Class Size



Agree completely. When I arrived for my class on this past May 30th, I was expecting a class size of 30, possibly 40 tops. Imagine my surprise ( and concern) when a quick tally before classroom instruction began showed 130 people in that class! During our two hours of range firing, the 3 range instructors quicky lost control at times. One young girl who apparently only wanted to impress everyone with her gun prowess, completely ignored the instructor's explicit instructions to wait for his whistle blow to begin firing and just aimed her weapon and rapid fired 15 rounds and then just laughed when the instructor tried to correct her. What he should have done in my opinion was rip her butt in front of everyone. There was no way the range instructors could keep an eye on everyone shooting and no way to provide individual instruction. They tried to concentrate on the novices mostly and the people who experienced gun problems. I would recommend to anyone that they be more diligent than I was and thoroughly investigate class size before signing up. I acted strictly on the recommendation of a friend. Fortunately, I have been around weapons most of my adult life and felt very confident prior to training and spent many hours at a local State of Ohio supervised range prior to the class but it was evident that for many people that day, it was the first time they had fired a weapon and that's not a good thing in a class that size.
 
#8 ·
I don't consider it obnoxious to complain when someone points a gun at me and pulls the trigger, but you could be right. The instructor had just 5 minutes earlier told everyone that you never, ever, ever, point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy. He was not as rude or brutish as I. His method didn't work. I hope mine did, and maybe they won't kill somebody, or themselves.
 
#10 ·
I would have jumped on them the minute that muzzle was pointed in a direction other than down range. That range officer is a jackass and he should be terminated. He was not doing his job. You can pretty much tell who the green ones are and those people have to be watched with more scrutiny. You're lucky that nothing happened. You could have been shot. Where was the instructor? The first thing he should have done was find out in advance who were first time shooters. He could have taken them aside for more personal instruction. In fact, first time shooters should have to take a handgun safety course before taking CCW instruction. This is why I don't like large CCW classes.
 
#11 ·
I would think that those who make excuses for those who act in an unsafe and dangerous manner while handling firearms would be more likely to create "ammo" for the antis. I may have misjudged the intent of this forum. I respect everyone's right to arm themselves in order to protect themselves and their loved ones. I'm not going to defend those who act in a wreckless fashion just because they are on "my side". I'll make sure and run any future posts thru you first, bbqgrill, to make sure they pass your scrutiny.
 
#12 ·
There's no excuse for it.
 
#13 ·
Don't people take ccw classes to learn about guns? You can't buy any kind of gun in MA with out taking a class first.

I don't think you should have blamed the girls, the instructor is at fault, not them. And if you had said something when you were first swept, politely then you probably would have gotten further. Being rude doesn't help anything all they walked away from that situation with is "some jerk lectured me and treated me like a child when I was trying to LEARN something at my CCW class".

They probably forgot instantly what you were reprimanding them about because of the tone.

I feel bad for anyone that takes a class when the instructors are not more attentive. I will be forever grateful for the people that taught my class!

~Krockett
 
#58 ·
I don't think you should have blamed the girls, the instructor is at fault, not them.
I agree. It is the responsibility of a range with a rangemaster to ensure safe operation on the part of patrons, and if unsafe behavior exists to let them know and eject them if it continues.

Even at the public range I've been to which has nobody 'in charge' and watching it this kind of thing would not fly. If somebody drove up and started sweeping people, everyone else present would make it clear that that sort of behavior is not tolerated.

At my local (indoor) range, they have a CCW class...you are required to have already taken a basic safety class beforehand if you are not familiar with firearms. If you go to sign up they will probably ask you to demonstrate competence before taking your money, unless you have been there before and they have seen you. The same goes for anyone renting a gun.

One gentleman in our class let the hammer on the .38spl revolvers we used at the range slam his thumb and the blood just flew.
Did he keep it pointed downrange during the incident? If so, I don't see the problem :35:
 
#15 ·
Wow, I'm afraid to ask where here in NC you took this class, but I can 100% guarantee who is wasn't with! Our classes are taught by Ex-military and ex-LEO on a private police range, with a 1:2 instructor-to-student ratio for the CCW class. The Basic Pistol has a 1:2 ratio as well. Class is taught in the room with a FAKE PLASTIC GUN for illustration, and we have a rule that at least 2 people clear each weapon on the range. No live ammo allowed in the classroom, and no one charges a weapon on the range until we've done range safety and are given the all-clear. AT NO TIME is any student UNSUPERVISED WHILE CARRYING. Even during dryfire exercises, we stood on a line, 8 of us, with 4 instructors behind us, moving around so that each student was supervised -- despite the fact that each weapon was cleared and there wasn't any ammo even in the building with us!

33 students to one instructor and a shruggy R.O? That sounds like a very high degree of irresponsibility to me. Are they out to EDUCATE folks, to keep citizens safe, or are they motivated by the almighty dollar? From your description, this was clearly an accident waiting to happen! Glad it didn't, but the "almost" would have been too close for comfort to me.

If I'd seen 33 students and one instructor, I would have turned tail and walked out of there to find a different instruction school.
 
#18 ·
Any class I've ever been in has been CLOSELY monitored as to where all the guns are, where the ammo is, and where your hands are...everyone was closely watched for just this kind of dangerous activity. You sweep someone, and you're outta' there.
All these potential problems were discussed before any guns made an appearance...and all rules were STRICTLY enforced.
 
#19 ·
Ratio is way out of whack. My class only had 7 and we had some newbies. Our LEO instructor and myself worked diligently on proper safety through the day and we were good to go by shooting time. It still worried me that they were clueless and showed little interest in learning more.

Armydad
 
#20 ·
i remember when i went and took my test about 13 years ago the guy next to me didn't know what he was doing and I called the RM over and said something he gave the guy a good talking to.

I think now everyone is running and trying to get a permit and some teachers are more concerned about passing people it seems than safety.

I know this may not be popular and i'm for the 2nd but I think if you want to carry in public you should show some type of proficiency.

We have an oral and shooting here in TN and to be honest I think it's a little too easy. I want anyone who wants to carry to be able to do so but would like for them to at least know what they are doing.
 
#22 ·
The classes I've been in .... there is 1 safety instructor to every 2 people with a gun and they are watched extremely close. IF "anyone" yells STOP.... that's it... everyone stops right there, no matter what they are doing and all guns are down.

It works fairly well. I saw one instructor grab a woman's arm and put it toward the ceiling when she was about to sweep 2 of us with a loaded gun. I thanked him for what he did. He asked for and took the gun, then talked to her about keeping the gun pointed down range at ALL times, etc. and began explaining to her all the bad things that could happen. He also demonstrated to her, how to have the gun open and recheck the weapon before she moves away from the range , etc.

IN your situation, the Instructor should have been stopping them with their 'fiddling' with the gun in the first place.
 
#24 ·
Sounds like there was inadequate supervision for the size of the class but even if there was, I think students should be encouraged by the instructor(s) to help one another regarding safety during the class so that if you do need to remind someone, it's taken less objectionably.
 
#25 ·
I agree, the RO sould have had better control of the class and his range. In my CCW class we were not alowed to touch our guns until it was time to shoot. The RO came to person and made sure they could operate their gun before we got to the fireing line.
 
#27 ·
I've seen many CCW classes while working at a range. Unfortunately there is a lot of dangerous gun handling, not to mention atrocious shooting. In the class I took, >30% had never fired their gun before. That is not the place for basic instruction. Unfortunately, most states require gun handling, types of guns, loading, unloading, cleaning, and care as part of the course. Students should already have that down pat. It would provide a lot more time to be devoted to how to stay out of trouble, training more focused on carry, and scenario discussions.
 
#28 ·
The first class I took which was the handgun safety class was mostly about handgun laws, the different kinds of handguns and safety. Although none of the handguns were loaded, most of the people in the class forgot the rule of not pointing the gun at someone while inspecting it. We had about 10-15 handguns on a semicircular table and we were sitting around with the instructor in the middle. One of the women was so afraid, she put the mag in, empty of course, pulled the slide and got terrified and let go of the pistol. It did two summersaults before it fell to the floor. I am glad it wasn't loaded. Some of the guys including myself were nervous since we hadn't handled a gun before, but I tried to stay calm and didn't make any mistakes.

Firearms training isn't cheap and it is scary that everyone doesn't think its necessary to take a basic and an advanced class.

I feel it should be made mandatory to take it, however the cost of the class should be either subsidized or the payment options should be more flexible.
 
#30 ·
BigBear, from my perspective, what you did was proper under the circumstances. Sometimes being blunt and direct is the best way to go. I would have done the same thing.

I'm too old to suffer fools lightly.
 
#31 ·
The instructor and range officer should be relieved of duties, if they cannot do what they are supposed to do: qualify competent folks, while ensuring a safe environment. You brought it to their attention ... and they ignored you with a shrug of the shoulders. They knew damned well what you were saying, and it didn't make a dent. Allowing people to slide through who are obvious death traps doesn't do anybody any good, beyond padding the bank accounts of the instructor/RO.

Had one of those, once. Walked out, then later spoke to the Sheriff about the incompetency. Suffice to say that the idiot is no longer doing training. (He's now, 7yrs later, not even in business any longer, but that's his own doing.)

You can't make this stuff up. :blink:
 
#32 ·
At my CCW class we only covered the legal aspects of carrying and use of a firearm, nothing more. It would be nice if people took some sort of class like the hunter's safety class I had to take. 16 total hours covered all the parts of the firearm, all the laws, theory of handling and then after passing a written test: handling and range time. If you swept someone with your barrel you were kicked out of the course immediately, whether the firearm was loaded or not.

Looking back 16 hours didn't seem like enough for some people, but I had grown up with firearms so there was no learning curve during the class for me at all, I expected them to somehow be as proficient as I was by the end of the course... That's what I get for being a 12 year old.
 
#33 ·
Took my CCW class today. Lots of folks who looked unfamiliar with their guns. The class had 33 people in it, so we had to wait our turn to qualify. We were gathered in a small room looking through the glass at the range area when I noticed 2 young ladies fidgeting with a semi-automatic. One of them was holding it, while the other attempted to show her how it worked. I was swept by the muzzle twice in quick succession, and the 3rd time one lady was able to pull the slide back and the one holding the gun pulled the trigger! I told her in the most stern voice that I could muster "Young Lady, you just pointed that gun at me and pulled the trigger. If you cannot control the direction of the muzzle, you need to put it down!" I looked at the range officer, who was paying very little attention to us, and he just kinda shrugged. The 2 young ladies gave me dirty looks and muttered something under their breath. I just wanted to remind those here who have yet to take their class that they should be very aware of those around them at all times, but especially when surrounded by people with new guns and no clue as to their use. If I had been running the class, they would have left without a certificate today. Instead they cheated off of each others papers during the written test, and are out there somewhere armed and dangerous. Protect yourself at all times! :frown:

Gee, and people wonder why I'm becoming more and more "anti".

I may not be posting much in the future, as the type of people I'm seeing lately in the forums, and IRL, scare the crap out of me and are a danger to everyone, myself included. I don't like having people around that are dangerous to me. :rolleyes:

I think it's all part of the "Grand Scheme" by the obahmessiah. Scare everyone in to buying a gun and then when they start using those guns wronfully get laws passed banning them.

If that makes me an "elitist" so be it. I do believe there needs to be tougher testing before you can carry a gun in public. Granted, there have always been idiots around us, it's just that lately they are more abundant.

Biker
 
#34 ·
Th problem is the rules that are in place that allow CCW: some states do not require a basic handgun safety course(I took a NRA course on my own) prior to taking a CCW course(my state doesn't). Some states don't even require any training for CCW. This is precisely why reciprocity between states is unequal: the difference in the requirements for CCW.
 
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