PA LTCF Incident

PA LTCF Incident

This is a discussion on PA LTCF Incident within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; JUNE 29, 2009 1045am CITIZEN / LEO Interaction Monday morning, daily walk with my yellow lab, Brook. Times and routes vary, but the distance is ...

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Thread: PA LTCF Incident

  1. #1
    Member Array SHOOTER13's Avatar
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    Exclamation PA LTCF Incident

    JUNE 29, 2009 1045am

    CITIZEN / LEO Interaction

    Monday morning, daily walk with my yellow lab, Brook. Times and routes vary, but the distance is usually within 1 ½ miles start to finish. As always, I put a firearm IWB …stick my PA LTCF permit in my pocket…put the leash on the dog, And head out the door. Neighborhood is single homes with well manicured lawns and upper middle class, ‘wave when you walk by people’. Having lived here for going on eight years, there are still many people that live within a ½ mile that I never met or even seen. Kinda like it that way… nobody in your business, don’t want to be in theirs.

    As the dog and I walk out the door, the way she leads usually determines our route; today is up the hill, across the street, first street, we make a left. Walking for about ten minutes, lab decides it’s time to do her duty, kind of pulls me to the curb, and finishes. I pull a plastic bag from my pocket, crouch down and gather the duty, and walk it over to a refuse can about ten feet away. The lab and I finish the walk and after I return home I tell my wife that I’m running over to the post office. I finish business there, and return home.

    Wife opens the front door as I hit the porch and calmly says that the Abington Township Police had been there about 15 minutes ago and wanted to talk to me. She proceeds to tell me that someone had called them about a man walking a dog who had a gun. When they arrived and knocked on my door, my wife was asked if she was ok and if she was alone, and since she was partially inside the doorway, if she would please step out onto the porch. That’s when she noticed four uniformed township patrolmen…one talking to her, one behind him, one on the walkway partially obscured by the hedges, and the last making his way around the side of the house to the backyard. All of the officers had their holsters unsnapped and hands on their duty weapons. The patrolman in charge (pic) then told the wife of the call to the station regarding a man walking his dog, carrying a gun. My wife related that I had just walked our lab and that I returned from that walk and went to the post office, and that I would be back within the hour. They also asked if we owned a gun, and if she knew if it was in the house or with me. My wife was sharp…not wanting to relate any information that could escalate the situation, her reply was that “my husband will be glad to answer any questions you have when he returns” …and left it at that. The PIC wrote a phone number down for me to call when I returned, noting that a return visit would ensue if a call was not received within two hours.

    After discussing the event with her, in which we both agreed that while we felt “our rights” were kind of being stepped on, beings that I did nothing wrong, and had every right to carry a firearm ( PA LTCF ), and the police were going to pursue the incident no matter what, I made the call to what turned out to be a dispatcher…gave my name and address…and told her that a patrolman had requested a return call. The dispatcher was polite, said thanks, and that she would notify the patrolman. Ten minutes later, a knock on the door brought me face to face with a single patrolman, who I greeted with my name and outstretched hand. The officers’ demeanor went from stern to friendly in about two seconds as I stepped onto my porch from the house, closing the door on my now barking lab. Before he had a chance to say a word, I informed him that I had indeed walked my dog that morning, giving him the route that I had taken, and told him I was in possession of a valid PA LTCF permit, which I promptly pull from my back pocket. He then asked if I had carried my “firearm” ( not gun or weapon ) with me when I walked the dog, to which I replied yes, and proceeded to tell him that I usually carry concealed, and could open carry if desired…per PA law...that the dog had done it’s business in front of one of the houses on the next block, and that I had bent down to clean-up the dog duty, to which he replied…“say no more…I can figure out what happened” as he smiled and nodded knowingly…and at the same time, waved away my permit without even glancing at it…and then he replied…”people !!”…and bowed and shook his head. At that point, our discussions turned to the firearm, with my offering him a glance at my Kel Tec PF-9, which was still clipped strongside kidney, under my tank top.
    He broadly smiled and said that he also carried a Kel Tec…a P32 as a bug and that his wife carried the P3AT. Then our talk turned to his duty weapon, a S&W 4006, which he related that he carried condition one, safety on. I asked if it still had a magazine disconnect, IIRC, and he gestured with a knowing nod that it did indeed and related a story of that feature saving a fellow officers life when a perp had tried to grab his gun, the officer had enough presence of mine to hit the mag release, drop the mag, and made the chambered cartridge a mute point as the perp pointed and tried to fire the weapon as the officer regained control and backup arrived. After some more friendly banter, my wife walked onto the porch to let me know she was going to the supermarket, at which point I introduced her to ‘Bob’…who then said he had to get going and said good day, and walked down the path to his patrol car.

    All in all, a very positive situation…though I did lay awake last night and wondered how it all could have went sideways if I had been home when all four LEO’s rolled up to the house, with a report of “man with a gun”.
    Last edited by SHOOTER13; June 30th, 2009 at 10:18 AM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Array Jeff F's Avatar
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    My first thought was how did they know where you lived. Did the person that called follow you home?
    "Those who would give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety" -Benjamin Franklin-
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    Member Array Riana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff F View Post
    My first thought was how did they know where you lived. Did the person that called follow you home?
    There are a number of people in our neighborhood I don't know, but I recognize them, and could probably tell you where they lived. It's entirely possible that the reporting person thought, 'Hey, that yellow lab lives over at 123 XYZ Street" and suggested that to the police. Or, that they did indeed see the guy walk home (note it was several minutes after the walk was done that before the cops showed up at his house).

    All-in-all, sounds like a reasonably good encounter. I do wonder, though, what would have happened if you'd been home at their first arrival. What on earth did the caller tell them, anyhow?

  4. #4
    Member Array SHOOTER13's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Exactly...

    That bothered me too !! Most people on that route were at work
    ( absence of cars in driveways...front doors closed ) and I knew standard operating procedure would deny access to name of caller, though I could imagine it might have been the owner of the home where the call of nature took place...but I know no person or car followed me the distance from point A to B...as the streets were deserted...and NO one on that particular block knows me or where I live...unless they have drove by my home before, and noticed me and the dog coming and going during our daily walk. My home is very distinctive...biggest house on the hill...oldest too ( 1875 )...more property than anyone else...(original owner owned of all the surrounding properties before selling and sub dividing.)

    And, come to think of it, I'm kinda distinctive too...6' 1 1/2"tall...long grey hair...thick mustache. It's possible, I guess
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  5. #5
    Member Array Raider39a's Avatar
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    shooter, the 2nd encounter seems to be more in the positive light. the first time the LEO came though is more of a potentially dangerous for you and your wife; they seem to be ready for hostilities and I don't really blame them.

    because I am of the suspicious type, are your neighbors unhappy with you and sent the cops to your house? did you inadvertently convert from ccw to "open carry" while walking the pooch and some yahoo spotted this and cause you some trouble?

    overall, it seems like a good encounter. stay safe.
    "embrace the suck" - our warriors in the sandbox... it implies that do the best you can in impossible conditions.
    "no plan survives intact upon contact with the enemy" - wisdom of the Grunts.

  6. #6
    Member Array SHOOTER13's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    The LEO and I came to the same conclusion, when crouching down to pick up the dog duty, the shirt must have rode up or the firearm stuck out momentarily...I'm usually attentive to that...without inadvertintly touching the spot every few minutes. The grip of the PF-9 is all that could have shown for a few seconds.

    And no, don't have any enemies or even interactions with people on that block...none at all !! The neighborhood is nice that way...if someone makes eye contact, they just wave or nod and continue with that they were doing...hardly a word is exchanged...ever!
    SHOOTER13
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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Magazine safety FTW.
    I've said ti before and will keep saying it.

    As to the rest of your story, good on your wife for responding as she did and maintaining control of the situation...rather than allowing them into your home and spouting off at the mouth with all manner of non-sense.

    And for you good on ya too for being a level headed sensible citizen.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    I'd guess along your route lives at least one flaming liberal anti-gunner. I'd be tempted to simply open carry on the next walk just to let them know where the law lines up on this issue....

    As for the cops during their initial contact at your home, the sheep who called in was likely in a tizzy and they reacted as though there was a legitimate threat. Don't blame them, it's the freaked out sheep that caused the stir.
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  9. #9
    Member Array SHOOTER13's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Magazine safety FTW.
    I've said ti before and will keep saying it.

    - Janq
    Thanks Janq...but what's FTW?
    ===================
    quote...Don't blame them, it's the freaked out sheep that caused the stir.
    JimmyC4 /quote

    You're right JimmyC4...but me thinks original LEO team would have pulled me out...put me down...handcuffs...maybe even drew on me if I was home. Officer 'Bob' on the other hand...was real cool !!

    As for going the same route today...me thinks it up to the dog...as usual. I'm not going to avoid the area tho...no way!
    SHOOTER13
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    Member Array oldogy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOOTER13 View Post
    Thanks Janq...but what's FTW?
    ===================

    You're right JimmyC4...but me thinks original LEO team would have pulled me out...put me down...handcuffs...maybe even drew on me if I was home. Officer 'Bob' on the other hand...was real cool !!

    IMO, many, many of these type non violent situations would be better served given a little time. A pack of LEOs dispatched to a MWG report have to be ready for anything, where a guy (you) is now back home to a reasonable environment, obviously no shootings, no bank robberies while you were gone. Common sense has had a chance to work. Who knows, maybe the LEOs had a chance to run some backgrounds on you, the neighborhood. Never under estimate the mindset of a team vs an individual, either. Time is a great healer.
    If you lived in a ghetto area I imagine things would have come down quite differently.
    oldogy
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    "If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying -- " Sen Orrin G. Hatch

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array TucAzRider's Avatar
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    Some people just have nothing better to do then "call in stupid things".... Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr Glad it all worked out well, and it seemed the LEO was a good one for sure..

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    Sounds like a good outcome! Ain't it great to be legal?
    God is love (1 John 4:8)

  13. #13
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TucAzRider View Post
    Some people just have nothing better to do then "call in stupid things".... Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr Glad it all worked out well, and it seemed the LEO was a good one for sure..
    And what REALLY pisses me off about that is that it seems like LEO never goes back to the person calling 911. Why don't they take 4 cops and go talk to the 911 caller and tell them that the next time they report perfectly legal, non-threatening behavior by calling 911 they will be charged with misuse of the system! Why do they always come harrassing us...the cop was good in the case, but many cops will express their opinions that they are tired of mwag calls and it's our fault that they get them. Why don't they put the blame where it belongs - on the 911 callers abusing the system.

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    Member Array Joel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    And what REALLY pisses me off about that is that it seems like LEO never goes back to the person calling 911. Why don't they take 4 cops and go talk to the 911 caller and tell them that the next time they report perfectly legal, non-threatening behavior by calling 911 they will be charged with misuse of the system! Why do they always come harrassing us...the cop was good in the case, but many cops will express their opinions that they are tired of mwag calls and it's our fault that they get them. Why don't they put the blame where it belongs - on the 911 callers abusing the system.
    For What it's Worth, I will offer my 2-cents (may be worth less than that to some)

    You carry. Your friends carry. You celebrate your right to carry IN YOUR HOME, IN FRONT OF YOUR HOME, INSIDE YOUR CAR and while walking with your wife and mother.... however....

    IF someone were to notice a man (you said many of your neighbors DON'T know you well) or men getting out of a car and walking into your home while carrying, and called the cops

    a) If that man, and his friends, were YOU, you would think these nosy neighbors need to get a life

    b) If that man, and his friends, were BG's with evil intent, YOU would thank your neighbors for being vigilant

  15. #15
    Member Array Jblack44's Avatar
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    better training is needed for the 911 dispatchers. They could eliminate many of the calls just by asking the caller a few quesitons.
    What is the person doing?? walking his dog
    Is he acting strange?? Well he's picking up dog poop.
    Is he waving his weapon around or is it holstered??? No it's in the holster on his hip.
    Is he threatening anyone??? Nope, just walking down the street.

    Well sir/madam carrying of a firearms by citizens is perfectly legal in the state of ****. Walking down the street with a holstered weapon is his/her right and doesn't require police interaction. thank you and have a good day.

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