Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church?

This is a discussion on Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi all, We have several times discussed CCW in church. It has been normally in the context of whether the church leadership has the right ...

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Thread: Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church?

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Really Want Unlimited CCW in Church?

    Hi all,

    We have several times discussed CCW in church. It has been normally in the context of whether the church leadership has the right to limit it, or if there is grave danger in the church.

    I would like to explore the question of whether it is a good idea to allow unlimited CCW as long as one has a license.
    Here are some thoughts.

    1. A church, during the regular services, is relatively crowded.
    2. The average CHL holder is not an especially good shot, and has not had the experience of having to make decisions re using deadly force.
    3 There may be dangers to others if a shot is missed or a bullet penetrated completely through.
    4. We do not want the CHL holder to do more damage than the BG.


    Before we moved into our new building we rented a store front. The main entrance would place anyone who entered directly in front of a SS class of children.
    If one were to shoot someone as he entered (assuming it was obviously necessary) he would have to take into account the class directly behind the target. It would require movement to move out of the direct line with the children, and to kneel to increase the chances that the shot that missed or penetrated through offered the minimum chance of hurting the children.

    Obviously, it is much better to stop the threat before he enters the building or the sanctuary. That cannot be depended upon however, and the BG may get into the service, and attempt to harm or kill someone in the service.
    There would be mayhem in all probability, but it could be that men in the immediate vicinity could overpower the BG without shooting.

    So with such scenarios in mind, would you really want just anyone with a license to carry and maybe cause more harm than the BG if he was unwise or unskilled? I would not.

    My own thinking is that if I were in a position of authority I would want to have someone who I knew was capable and could act wisely.
    Before I would approve carrying by any individual I would want him to go through some sort of orientation and a test of skill. I would want to be satisfied he/she was a mature individual and would not see himself as a knight in shining armor or an off duty LEO.

    I know that there are other aspects of a plan, but I would like to limit this thread to the question of who would you want to be carrying in a crowded place where your wife or children were at the time.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    1. A church, during the regular services, is relatively crowded.
    2. The average CHL holder is not an especially good shot, and has not had the experience of having to make decisions re using deadly force.
    3 There may be dangers to others if a shot is missed or a bullet penetrated completely through.
    4. We do not want the CHL holder to do more damage than the BG.
    Lets see, movie theaters can be awfully crowded. So can restaurants, public transportation, stores, etc. Even walking down the sidewalk, a CCW holder could suddenly encounter a crowd or group of people. Should we ban concealed carry from all those places?

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    Member Array JoeTiger's Avatar
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    Because of similar concerns, our church has a designated security team--entirely made up of off-duty LEO's. For every service, they are strategically placed throughout the church. This way, they can asses any potential threat--regardless of where they enter the building—and deal with it appropriately (and with minimal risk to others).
    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." -- Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)

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    Member Array Japle's Avatar
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    My own thinking is that if I were in a position of authority I would want to have someone who I knew was capable and could act wisely.
    Before I would approve carrying by any individual I would want him to go through some sort of orientation and a test of skill. I would want to be satisfied he/she was a mature individual and would not see himself as a knight in shining armor or an off duty LEO.
    Who sets the standards? If someone shoots a 125 with their Glock 9mm (IDPA Sharpshooter) is that good enough or would you require a 120 (Expert)? Is military training OK, or is Thunder Ranch required?
    I can see big trouble if you tell your members they have to meet some arbitrary standard to exercise their Constitutional rights.

    Would you also require an armed person to be a church member? If he or she is not, they'd be acting as a paid armed guard. Good luck finding someone who'll stand and fight for $12 an hour and not save his own butt by running.

    There have been examples of legally armed church members stopping attackers, but I'm not aware of any instances of them shooting innocents.
    Sounds like you're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
    John
    Cape Canaveral

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    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    Accuracy isn't critical, if it was I'd use a sniper up in the balcony.

    Maturity, observation skills and communications are key.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

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    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    In general your replies have not been responsive to the question asked.


    Regards,
    Jerry

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    Senior Member Array TucAzRider's Avatar
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    Jerry,.. Your putting the horse on life-support just to kick it,.. I'm sure I don't stand alone when I say this topic is getting old already.. We all understand you have your oppinion and we do to,.. Let it go,.. Let it go,..

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    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    People that have permits have gone through a lot hoops to get thier permits. I have no problem with them carrying in church or any where else. Most can shoot as good as LE or better. You sound like you are part of the "blood will run in the streets" crowd. We have better judgement than than you give us credit for.

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    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    I know that there are other aspects of a plan, but I would like to limit this thread to the question of who would you want to be carrying in a crowded place where your wife or children were at the time.

    Regards,
    Jerry


    Jerry.....you present the same argument that the anti-ccw folks present. Using it in the context of Church doesn't make it any more desirable. Like others have said, or will say...what about malls, swap meets or any other venue where large crowds gather?
    When the SHTF I'd rather have someone with a CCW and minimal training next to me as opposed to someone who is completely unarmed.

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    Oh... I thought he meant caliber.

    You Jahova witnesses can only carry 22's.
    Catholics and Protestants, 38 specials.

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    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    So with such scenarios in mind, would you really want just anyone with a license to carry and maybe cause more harm than the BG if he was unwise or unskilled? I would not.
    Yes, if a person's licensed for CCW I'd want to let them carry if they chose to do so, and to use their gun if they chose to do so.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; July 4th, 2009 at 12:38 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    1. A church, during the regular services, is relatively crowded.
    Everywhere people go is crowded...
    2. The average CHL holder is not an especially good shot, and has not had the experience of having to make decisions using deadly force.
    I've not read of too many CCW holders shooting innocent individuals while repelling crime...
    3 There may be dangers to others if a shot is missed or a bullet penetrated completely through.
    There is always that possibility, but what if you had to take that chance to save the lives of family members? Would you take it?
    Same goes for most places BG's pick out their victims...

    4. We do not want the CHL holder to do more damage than the BG.
    I agree, but life is not fair...we do what we have to do to survive.

    I know that there are other aspects of a plan, but I would like to limit this thread to the question of who would you want to be carrying in a crowded place where your wife or children were at the time.
    I would feel quite comfortable if every single person at church was armed.
    Do we or do we not believe in 'RKBA'? Are you now suggesting that we ought to decide who can carry in crowded places? That's exactly what the current administration would like to do...no carry anywhere...it's very dangerous you know.

    You keep the change, I'll keep my guns and religion.

    Stay armed...stay respectful...stay safe!
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  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I would feel quite comfortable if every single person at church was armed.
    Do we or do we not believe in 'RKBA'? Are you now suggesting that we ought to decide who can carry in crowded places? That's exactly what the current administration would like to do...no carry anywhere...it's very dangerous you know.

    You keep the change, I'll keep my guns and religion.

    Stay armed...stay respectful...stay safe!
    Not worrying about crowded places. In a church the leadership has a responsibility to determine whether or not anyone who wants to can carry.

    There are no 2A rights in view as it does not pertain to what a church can do.
    No, I do not support unlimited RKBA, and do support that a church, among other organizations, can determine whether or not carrying a gun in the church is permitted.

    I dispute that accuracy is not important. How many here can make a killiing shot at 10 -20 yards when people are in panic and may even be running over you?

    I have previously stated that I assist in teaching a CHL class. The requirements to qualify are 25 shots at a 12 x 18 inch target. Fifteen shots are at 3 yards, and 10 at 7 yards.
    That kind of shooting does not indicate the level of skill needed in a crowded church.

    If your family were close to the action, would you want a person who can only place 70% of his shots in a 12X18 target at 3 and 7 yards to begin shooting toward your family? I sure would not.
    It is one thing to defend against a direct attack on you in the street or in a business. It is another to have to shoot inside a crowded place like a church.

    Accordingly, I would make sure a person was more skilled than that, and that he could hit an 8 inch target 95% or even 100% at the maximum distance he would shoot.

    In a crowd it is not difficult for men to overpower a shooter, even at the expense of getting shot or cut themselves.

    We have already argued the pastor's authority, and 2 A. I am hoping that you will objectively consider whether you want anyone who has passed a test to start shooting in church if a BG attacked in the church. It is of interest that some states have no shooting qualification requirement.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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    Member Array Manan's Avatar
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    Honor the Wishes of the Elders of the Church

    A church is usually a group of like minded individuals worshiping their lord in the way they want. My particular denomination has issued a request that weapons of any kind not be possessed in any Church building. I honor and submit to their guidance. I do not carry my weapon while in church.

    If I felt strong enough to go against the wishes of the governing church body I would find a different congregation to attend. One whose members or leadership felt the same way that I did.

    Again, I honor and submit my will to those of my religious leadership.
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    So with such scenarios in mind, would you really want just anyone with a license to carry and maybe cause more harm than the BG if he was unwise or unskilled? I would not.
    No where has collateral damage been an issue. Could it be someday? Sure it could.

    What does not work for me is being in a gun fight without a gun. If some jerk came into my church shooting, someone is going to die. I prefer it be him, and who does it is no concern of mine.


    My own thinking is that if I were in a position of authority I would want to have someone who I knew was capable and could act wisely.
    Sounds good in theory.


    Before I would approve carrying by any individual I would want him to go through some sort of orientation and a test of skill. I would want to be satisfied he/she was a mature individual and would not see himself as a knight in shining armor or an off duty LEO.
    I don't care as long as they have the gonads to stand up and attempt to end a threat.

    I know that there are other aspects of a plan, but I would like to limit this thread to the question of who would you want to be carrying in a crowded place where your wife or children were at the time.
    FWIW...I do carry in church. I am an LEO. We do have a church security team comprised entirely of off duty LEO's, in fact I went to church last week in uniform and armed. Here In Arkansas only LEO's can carry in church. The law to amend that recently came up in the legislation, was very close to passing and the winning vote got up an left right in the middle of session. Personally, I think he should have been censored, fired and kicked out of the Assembly for refusing to do the job he was elected for, I suppose he learned that trick from Senator Obama.

    I am not opposed to any CHL holder carrying in church. For one, people that know that would be less likely to get stupid and walk in and shoot the place up.

    Two, if you have a limited amount of off duty LEO's in place, in a big church there are a lot of gaps that cant be covered. I go to a big church and I know this.

    Three, the ideal of any concealed weapon holder worshiping with me is fine by me. In a battle I want as many friendly guns on my side as I can muster up.

    As in any gunfight there is always the possibility of collateral damage. Having no guns in a gunfight ensure that the shooter will do well until he either kills himself or escapes.

    If you are worried about being killed in church by" friendly fire", then either don't go there or find somewhere else to go.

    The world is getting crazier by the day. Expecting people to be disarmed in church because they may not meet your standards is a bit naive.
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