Federal property.. legal or illegal?????? - Page 2

Federal property.. legal or illegal??????

This is a discussion on Federal property.. legal or illegal?????? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by duckhunter You must declare them when you enter the gate, which most times will end up getting your entire vehicle searched, S/Ns ...

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Thread: Federal property.. legal or illegal??????

  1. #16
    New Member Array danedel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckhunter
    You must declare them when you enter the gate, which most times will end up getting your entire vehicle searched, S/Ns verified, and provost marshall's office notified.
    Been there.....when I lived in GA on Ft Gordon.


  2. #17
    Member Array Bags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danedel
    Military installations are not governed by federal law....but there own law. Basically whichever the post/fort/base commander chooses, usually the standard "check the block" regulations but there are certin military specific DOD regulations on who can carry on military installations. To tell you the truth I have not pushed this one, as I might loose my job/access to local fort/basses. If you want to carry onto a secure facility, that only screened personnel have access to, go ahead. There are postings at all guard shacks that state the reg. If you are bold enough ask the peon that is usually guarding the gate. I guarantee they will say “no way” especially with the threat level escalated.

    I usually feel very safe there
    There are "standard" rules for every CONUS installation. I know that base commanders can add, but they can't take away from the SOP. I know exactly what sign you are talking about, I see the sign everyday, just as you do. I just have not read it for the refference.. I will be doing that tomorrow.

    It's not about getting fired or telling the system to F off. It's about what is LEGAL and what is NOT legal.

    I'll look up DOD regs.

  3. #18
    Member Array Bags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckhunter
    Pasted from my reply on a similar thread:

    As a soldier, commander, CCW holder, and hunter, I have been thoroughly educated on pretty much every iteration of getting a weapon on a military installation legally. Definately a PITA, but worth it for me because there is some great hunting available on post.

    Several have mentioned the possibility of storing weapons on post. There is a provision for doing so, but only for service members living in the barracks or in post housing. They can store their POWs (Privately Owned Weapons) in their unit armsroom, and just sign them out from the armorer for hunting and target shooting. This requires a memorandum signed by the company-level commander who is the "landlord" for that armsroom, and only for personnel in his command. Bottom line, civilians, contractors, and off-post personnel don't have storage facilities available on post for their weapons.

    Another caveat to this whole deal is that you have to register every weapon you bring on post in advance, by S/N, with the provost marshalls office. The form also has to be signed by your unit commander - I used to do this all the time for my soldiers. Not sure how it works for civilians. Once registered, carry the card with you if you have the weapons on board, and again, only for range shooting and hunting - no CCW or just to have it in the truck. You must declare them when you enter the gate, which most times will end up getting your entire vehicle searched, S/Ns verified, and provost marshall's office notified.
    Keeping it in the car on "federal" property will be more than I can do now..lol

    And when I lived in the bks, I would not buy a firearm for the armory to store.. thanks but no thanks.

    Thanks for the info.

    So that covers "military bases". Post office and federal property still open then.

  4. #19
    Member Array Bags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danedel
    Seems a grey area in federal law has appeared...Maybe I should contact the individuals involved for further investigation. Well at any rate I hope to soon separate from the unit that I am with and get a “real” job on the outside.

    Better to ask forgivness than ask permission... as long as loss of job and or freedom is not involved.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danedel
    the fact is that there is no federal law that says personal protection is a lawful purpose, period.
    Personal protection is not outlawed, therefore it is lawful. In this great land known as America, if an act is not specifically prohibited in statutory, case, or administrative law, it is a legal act. An omission of prohibition is the same as if a law was in place to say that the act was specifically legal. Obviously this would make every legal act a law and to try and transcribe every lawful act on the books is insanity at best. It is easier to just record the unlawful acts and their exceptions than record every legal act. This legal phenomenon is known as the modern 'common law' and originated in England and was carried and is upheld here in the states.

    In other words, if it doesn't say it is illegal, it is legal.

    For example:

    Chewing buble gum is not prohibited by any law on any books. Therefore it is legal and lawful.

    Folding a piece of paper into an airplane shape in not prohibited by any law on any books. Therefore it is legal and lawful.

    Similarly, personal protection is not outlawed by any law on any books. Therefore it is legal and lawful.

    MI does not prohibit carry of a weapon into a post office. Federal law states as long as it is legally possessed by a legally eligible possesor for legal purposes, it is legal.

    That being said, since I have legally obtained a concealed weapon permit issued my the state of Michigan, I have been inside the post office at least a dozen times and have carried a concealed firearm on each and every visit to conduct lawful commerce with the United States Government via the United States Postal Service, which is lawful, satisfying every single element of the exception.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  6. #21
    ktm
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    Quote Originally Posted by danedel
    Military installations are not governed by federal law....but there own law. Basically whichever the post/fort/base commander chooses, usually the standard "check the block" regulations but there are certin military specific DOD regulations on who can carry on military installations. To tell you the truth I have not pushed this one, as I might loose my job/access to local fort/basses. If you want to carry onto a secure facility, that only screened personnel have access to, go ahead. There are postings at all guard shacks that state the reg. If you are bold enough ask the peon that is usually guarding the gate. I guarantee they will say “no way” especially with the threat level escalated.:
    I used to drive a squad car @ an Army base. Only MP's, etc carried & we knew who they were ahead of time.
    Semper Fi

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    Just an interesting observation here...my wife sometimes works at a V.A. hospital...federal property, etc, etc, etc. I usually drop my wife off at work so this is of concern to me as I can't drop her off anywhere other than on the V.A. grounds for both safety and convenience reasons...anyway, I pulled up www.va.gov to find any information about legally carrying on the grounds...they list three interesting things:
    1) They claim it is illegal to bring a gun onto the grounds of the V.A.
    2) They list a $500 fine for doing so
    3) In another part of the website the specifically say that you can leave your gun with V.A. Police when you arrive, they will lock it up, and they will give it back to you when you leave.

    Seems to me that #3 contradicts the other two to some extent...if they truly think it's illegal why would they tell you to bring it on the property and hand it to the police...very strange

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Ray, it is because the people who write regulations (admin law) and legislative law intentionally write them to confound and confuse people!!

    Examples:

    - If illegal to possess a gun in a USPO, how does one ship a long gun (allowed for in US Postal Regs)?

    - If illegal to possess a gun in a USPO, how does an 01 FFL ship a handgun (allowed for by 01 FFLs per US Postal Regs)?

    The same way the VA contends it is illegal on their property but allows you to "check your gun with their security"!

    Keep in mind that a facility/agency can make "rules" which contradict law (prohibit carrying/possession). Rules can be enforced by refusing entry or telling a person to leave . . . failure to do so can result in disciplinary action (firing of employee or criminal trespass-but ONLY after being told to leave and refusing).

    Military makes it's own rules and enforces them by UCMJ. I think it is fair to say that your constitutional rights are "left at the door" when you sign up for military duty.

  9. #24
    New Member Array danedel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS
    Military makes it's own rules and enforces them by UCMJ. I think it is fair to say that your constitutional rights are "left at the door" when you sign up for military duty.

    rotflmao, so true....

    So whats the verdict on this? I am offering to go back to the department of homeland security and have them specifically show me a regulation that states, in plain text, "no weapons/conciled weapons"

  10. #25
    Member Array duckhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danedel
    So whats the verdict on this? I am offering to go back to the department of homeland security and have them specifically show me a regulation that states, in plain text, "no weapons/conciled weapons"
    Here's the regulation from Ft Bragg Reg 190-12. Specifically, see page 3 para 1-3e - to paraphrase: concealed carry permits are not valid on the installation. No loaded weapons on post except LEOs and military personnel in the performance of their duties. Every installation has a reg similar to this.

    http://www.bragg.army.mil/PSBC-PM/Pr...BReg190-12.pdf
    "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final." - Bill Jordan

  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    I more than understand about military bases, but I have to agree with freakshow - if the state you are in does not prohibit carrying in a Post Office, and you are otherwise legal to carry, and you do not intend to commit a crime, it is legal to carry in a USPO.

  12. #27
    Member Array ppro's Avatar
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    Couple thoughts

    First of all, it's not the state that prohibits carry on Federal Property, it's the Fed. that prohibits it. Thusly, your state issued concealed carry is as far as I can see....worthless with regard to carry on Federal Property......there could be some strange exception to this, but I am not familar with any. State carry is controlled by the states within states on state property, and does not apply to the Fed.....
    Second, I believe there is uniformity to the title and section covering carry onto Federal Property..but....it is also applied as needed to try to fit the circumstance. For example, there is title and section which states, that it is illegal to bring a firearm onto Federal Property, unless the act was concurrent with a particular hunting situation.....go figure.....

    I have the title and section and exact wording at work in my books and I do have to enforce these Federal Laws on Federal Property.

    My suggestion would be to find out what is being enforced and how and follow that dictate.

    If you want to make a issue of it as it applies to a particular circumstance you may be involved in I am sure you can and get some answers that may satisify you however in today's climate of concern and with the changes with Home Land Security and all, ....if it were me, I would be pretty careful to follow recommendations and rules ....and laws.....

    Though you may be acting within the law, it doesn't mean that the act won't be mistaken or misunderstood, and the result may be ugly and by the time it's all sorted out....you may wish you had chosen another path.

    This is not to try to scare anyone....rather to point out, that the climate is somewhat different than in years past....laws not withstanding.

    There are also different levels of authority and overlapping authority between Fed and State...which can confound things even further.

    Proprietary, concurrent, and exclussive jurisdictional (state and fed.) authority are specific yet at times, the lines are blurred even within these levels of jurisdiction......confussion anyone ?

    Again, I wouldn't conceal carry into a Federal facility...but, if you were to ask the Post Office, you may have your answer. Your allowed to ship firearms no problem....carry may well be viewed differently...and rightly so.



    Paul

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Three words for you on federal installation carry "don't do it" The fed law is designed to get us common folk confused so I would play it safe and not carry. I would also not carry on any military base. Heck, unless you are a Military Cop you can't even carry. That is why I never bought a pistol in the service and I could have bought pretty much what I wanted because The TDY's more than kept my pockets nice. However, the rumor was that the guys in the armory were shooting pistols kept by them. Moreover, it was a hassle you had to sign it out, sign it in and then your First Seargeant and to know that you had a weapon. Well, thats what I was told, but I am for that it had to live in the armory and not your barracks room.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  14. #29
    Member Array rtroha's Avatar
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    Alternate Point of View

    Since everyone likes to point to the gunzone article whenever post office carry is discussed, here is an alternate point of view from another attorney, called Concealed-carry in a post office may lead to rude awakening

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/content-96.html

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