Questions from a newbie

Questions from a newbie

This is a discussion on Questions from a newbie within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi all, I've seen several posts that refer to "condition orange" and c1 and c2. I've done a search but can't find any definitions of ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array DM2's Avatar
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    Questions from a newbie

    Hi all,
    I've seen several posts that refer to "condition orange" and c1 and c2. I've done a search but can't find any definitions of what this means. What do these terms mean. What other conditions are there?

    Also, can anyone point me to a good source to learn more about bullets. Specifically, grain amounts, what is +P and how does this apply to range rounds and defensive rounds? I've learned alot about caliber and am pretty comfortable shooting 9mms and .40s. But that seems like the tip of the iceberg once I decide on a caliber.

    Thanks in advance
    DM2
    "I did the thing I feared the most. Excuse me while I cheer. Now here I stand a stronger soul and all I lost was fear." ...Anonymous


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Mental Color Codes:

    Condition White - Unaware, unalert, unprepared.
    Condition Yellow - Alert, aware, good situational awareness.
    Condition Orange - You are aware of a potential threat.
    Condition Red - You are acting to protect self or others.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  3. #3
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    From Wikipedia's rendition of Jeff Copper's color code system:

    Quote:
    * White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

    * Yellow - Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself." You are simply aware that the world is an unfriendly place and that you are prepared to do something, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to SHOOT today." You don't have to be armed in this state but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six". (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep.

    * Orange - Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has gotten your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot HIM today." In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that goblin does "x", I will need to stop him." Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.

    * Red - Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger has been "tripped" (established back in Condition Orange). You take appropriate action.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  4. #4
    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    Lets start with +P. This is a designation given to ammunition loaded to higher than normal pressures, resulting in higher velocity and better expansion of the bullet. Little if any range ammunition is +P. Some, but not all defensive ammo is +P. Also a particular gun may be +P rated, meaning it is able to handle +P ammo. Not all guns can.
    Grains designates the weight of a bullet. A 9mm bullet for example can weigh anywhere from 90grs to 147grs. Typically the lighter the bullet, the higher the velocity. A good example of a +P load is CorBons 115gr 9mm +P which has a velocity of 1475 fps. On the other hand, heavier bullets are more incapacitating by one school of thought. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by automatic slim; July 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 PM. Reason: addl. info
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    C1 and C2: May have been shorthand for condition-one and condition-two, which I understand are two of the states in which you can carry a 1911-style semi-auto. I think condition-one is: loaded magazine, a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and the safety on (but I'm not sure).

    Grain amounts: the weight of bullets (the metal chunk that is projected from the muzzle) is measured not in grams or ounces but in grains. You can probably find conversion factors on the web.

    +P: SAMMI (an ammunition manufacturer trade association) publishes specifications for the standard amounts of pressure that the exploding gasses of different cartridges are supposed to generate. If a cartridge is rated "+P" it means it generates more pressure than the SAMMI standard. "+P+" means it generates even more pressure. Don't know if there are any standards regarding how much more. Too much pressure in a gun not made to handle it can damage the gun, sometimes explosively.

    There are many, many articles (and arguments) on the web regarding caliber, bullet weight, pressure, etc. One that has an interesting take on the topic is:

    Series index: "Self defense, stopping power, and caliber" | Ammunition, General gun stuff, Techniques & Training | GRANT CUNNINGHAM

  6. #6
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    Grain amounts: the weight of bullets (the metal chunk that is projected from the muzzle) is measured not in grams or ounces but in grains. You can probably find conversion factors on the web.
    One pound equals 7000 grains or 437.5 grains to one once.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
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  7. #7
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    Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.

    Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

    Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

    Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

    Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
    These generally refer to a 1911-style pistol, but can be interpreted for different gun types.

    For example, on a SA/DA style auto, Condition One is the same except that there is no external safety to engage.

    Condition two seems generally limited to pistols with an external hammer, as glock-styles cannot (AFAIK) be cocked without racking the slide.

    Conditions 3 and 4 are the same for all automatic pistols

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    Condition 1 means your gun is loaded fully, including a round in the chamber, and for 1911 style gov't 45 autos, it means the hammer is back and the thumb safety is employed up, or on.

    Condition 2 means the hammer is down on a live round in the chamber, and in some autos it can be safe, but not in some 1911's. If the pistol is a single action auto, where the trigger can only drop the hammer, you must manually cock the hammer to fire. A double action/single action (DA/SA) trigger will both cock and release the hammer for the first shot, using some force of the finger. After that, the slide motion recocks the hammer so subsequent shots will be in single action mode which requires a lighter touch. Some autos are (DAO) double action only, and the hammer is always down, but usually blocked, over a live round.

    Condition 3 means the full magazine is in the magaszine well, but the chamber is empty. This is sometimes called "Israeli Carry." The slide must be racked to chamber a round before the gun will fire. Obviously, this is time consuming and opens you up to a misfeed.

    However you carry, use a holster that covers the trigger guard. I don't like retention straps, except in the woods. It's nice to be able to reholster with one hand. I try to keep the muzzle or front always pointed in a safe direction. I won't touch the trigger unless I've dicided to shoot AND the gun is lined up on a positively identified threat and safe background.
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  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    +P is generally about 10% hotter load than the SAAMI specs.
    +P+ is generally 20-30% hotter load than the SAAMI specs.

    (SAAMI--Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute)
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  10. #10
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    For example, on a SA/DA style auto, Condition One is the same except that there is no external safety to engage.


    Some SA/DA autos do have an external safety and/or a decocker.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterX View Post
    Some SA/DA autos do have an external safety and/or a decocker.
    Thanks. As to the external safety, I meant to say many, using Glocks as an example.

    By the time I realized my mistake, I didnt have the option to edit.

    But AFAIK, when using a decocker, the only way to re-cock is to rack the slide, effectively putting the weapon into C3.

    Please, correct me if im wrong..

  12. #12
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    Wow, thanks to all for all the excellent information.

    MFCMB - thanks for the link. It is very informative and I like the layman's language. I'll be sure to pass the link on to others.

    Gunthorp - your explanation of SA, DA/SA, DAO is very helpful, as this has been a very confusing point for me in deciding what to purchase. I'm not sure I know which one is better but I'll keep studying and reading.

    This site is awesome. So much knowledge, so much to learn.
    DM2
    "I did the thing I feared the most. Excuse me while I cheer. Now here I stand a stronger soul and all I lost was fear." ...Anonymous

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    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    DM2 I've had a 1911 for years and I didn't know about all the different C= levels. For me it was either cocked and locked or it wasn't.

    There's defiantly a ton of knowledge here.
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  14. #14
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    My 1911's are either cocked, locked, with a round in the chamber and on my body, or else they are completely empty in a robust safe.

    The new striker fired designs have a hybrid trigger. They have no hammer, and the internal striker, with its heavier spring, serves as the firing pin. After racking the slide to chamber a round, the striker is partially cocked and also blocked. The trigger only needs to fully cock the striker, unblock it, and let it go. Not as much finger pressure or trigger movement is required compared to a double action. Some auto designs with a long, heavy stroke of the trigger don't employ any other external safeties, like revolvers. The light, crisp, short stroke of the SA, while conducive to target accuracy, not only requires a manual safety, but also self discipline in a tense situation.

    For a hostage situation, where pinpoint accuracy is essential, my preference is SA in the Kimber Ultra CDP, my primary. For combat accuracy and speed I can rely on my striker fired (DAO) backup gun (BUG) Kahr PM40.

    Any gun will do when you learn to dominate it. You will win every gunfight you avoid.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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    VIP Member Array joker1's Avatar
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    Single action and double action are definately something to consider.

    The Glock that I have has reinforced the whole idea of keeping your finger OFF of the trigger until your are ready to destroy something/someone. There is no external safety lever or grip safety to rely on, although don't trust these safety devices (mechanical-means they can fail)-KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF OF THE TRIGGER. It is not that is an easy trigger to accidentally set off, it is pretty damn safe, but I'm used to guns with external safeties.

    I used to carry a 1911 in condition 1, which is the only way to carry a weapon, a simple thumb stroke while drawing and a short sweet squeeze of trigger=kaboom. If it ain't got one in the chamber you will probably lose the battle and maybe the war.

    I had shot some DA revolvers in my time and if you go fast enough (without much practice and trigger work) you can really get the muzzle swaying. They can be operated with great accuracy with a lot of practice. What I did like was using some of that trigger stroke to get on target and be ready when the hammer drops, more control.

    I love my 1911 and I love my Glock. You have to know how they operate and get familiar with them then figure which is better for you.

    Joker1

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