Poor Newspaper Article
This is a discussion on Poor Newspaper Article within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A friend sent me this somewhat bias article which based on the links is from Tenn.
July 23, 2009, 12:00 pm
Two States Legalize Guns ...
July 24th, 2009 10:14 AM
Poor Newspaper Article
A friend sent me this somewhat bias article which based on the links is from Tenn.
July 23, 2009, 12:00 pm
Two States Legalize Guns in Bars
By Robert Mackey
Even though gun-rights advocates in the Senate narrowly failed on Wednesday in a vote to greatly broaden the freedom to carry concealed weapons, two states acted last week to make it easier for armed gun owners to hang out with drunk people.
Last Tuesday, a new guns-in-bars law took effect in Tennessee after a judge in Nashville refused to issue a temporary injunction blocking its implementation. A few hours later, Arizona followed suit with a measure signed into law by the state’s governor, Jan Brewer. The Arizona Republic reported that the governor’s action “expanded the rights of gun owners by allowing those with a concealed-carry permit to take their firearms into establishments that serve alcohol.”
As my colleague Katharine Q. Seelye reported last month when the guns-in-bars bill passed in Tennessee: “Gun-rights advocates say expanded rights are needed so that law-abiding citizens can protect themselves in more situations.” In this video report from Nashville, the BBC heard from Nikki Goeser, a resident who supports the new law. Ms. Goeser told the BBC that she might have been able to prevent the murder of her husband in a bar if she had had a gun on her at the time.
In both states, there is a catch. The new laws stipulate that armed patrons have to refrain from drinking while in the bars – in effect, creating a new category of customer, the designated shooter.
Not surprisingly, some bar owners in each state have objected to laws that leave it up to them to tell armed customers that they can’t drink. Metromix Phoenix reports: “Scottsdale bar and restaurant owner Les Corieri said he thinks the new law permitting the state’s 137,766 carriers of concealed-weapons permits to bring firearms into bars and restaurants is insane.” According to the video report from News Channel 5 in Nashville embedded below, “Many bar and restaurant owners are already taking steps to prohibit the weapons by using a provision of the law that allows them to post signs saying guns are not allowed.”
One important correction should be made to this local television report: the anchor’s closing statement that “nearly 40 other states have a similar law in place” is incorrect. On Wednesday, The Lede spoke with David Randolph Smith, whose Nashville law firm is leading the fight to have Tennessee’s law declared unconstitutional. Mr. Smith says that his legal research team looked closely at the gun laws in every state, and found that there are just 14 states that issue permits allowing patrons to carry firearms in restaurants that serve alcohol.
Mr. Smith has posted the results of his legal team’s research on his Web site, beneath this statement: “The claim that ‘40′ states have ’similar laws’ to Tennessee’s new guns-in-bars law is false and misleading.” In fact, Mr. Smith writes, “because bars, saloons, nightclubs and restaurants with bar areas are notorious for fights, assaults and breaches of the peace, carrying loaded guns is expressly prohibited by law in bars, nightclubs or bar areas serving alcohol in 24 states [23 now that AZ changed its law].”
After reviewing state gun laws in detail, Mr. Smith concluded: “No state, by statute or regulation, expressly allowed firearms to be brought into bars until the Tennessee legislature passed” the new law. Mr. Smith told The Lede. “No state has ever said, ‘we want you to bring a gun into where real drinking is happening.’ ”
As The Tennessean reported this week, while industry groups “expect roughly four out of five restaurants in the state to opt out of a new law,” some bars and restaurants in the state are planning to allow guns, at least for the moment:
Drew Dixon, co-owner of Legends Sports Grill in Lebanon, said the restaurant is allowing guns, though it’s doing so “with open eyes.”
“We did think about it for a week or so,” Dixon said. “We just said we’ll go along with Tennessee state law unless there’s a scuffle or, heaven forbid, anything happens.”
Meanwhile David Randolph Smith is pressing ahead with his effort to have the new law declared “void for vagueness.” The same judge who refused to grant a temporary injunction to prevent the law from taking effect plans to hear his case soon.
In both Tennessee and Arizona, bar owners have complained to the media that their objections have been ignored by politicians looking to score points with a powerful pro-gun lobby. Last week The Colbert Report profiled one of the political leaders of Tennessee’s fight to get guns and alcohol in the same room:
The Colbert Report Mon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c Difference Makers - Doug Jackson Colbert Nation | The Colbert Report Official Site | Comedy Central Colbert Report Full Episodes Political Humor Mark Sanford
Update | 12:24 p.m. David Randolph Smith drew our attention to a report from Jeff Woods, a Nashville blogger, which seems to undercut the argument made by Nikki Goeser, whose husband was fatally wounded in a bar. Last week, Mr. Woods wrote:
Since her husband was shot to death in a Nashville sports bar this spring, Nikki Goeser has become the public face of the NRA’s campaign to make it legal for Tennessee’s licensed gunmen to go armed into drinking establishments. She contends that if she’d only had a gun with her at Jonny’s Sports Bar, she could have saved her husband’s life. [...]
Well, it turns out that even the folks at Jonny’s apparently don’t buy the NRA’s logic. The Nolensville Road bar is one of many that have posted signs banning handguns on their premises. Pith called Jonny’s and asked to speak to the owner or manager. The guy who came to the phone confirmed Jonny’s has banned guns but wouldn’t talk about it. [...]
“We put the signs up,” he said, “but I don’t want to be quoted at all.”
Update | 2:21 p.m. A reader who supports the new laws suggests that “permit holders are much less likely to commit violent crimes than the general public.” In March a Tennessee newspaper, The Memphis Commercial Appeal, published a report headlined “Armed and dangerous: Dozens with violent histories received handgun carry permits,” which suggests the permit process in Tennessee may not be keeping guns out of the hands of people with violent histories. The newspaper reported that by searching a database it had compiled – and published on its Web site – of people with permits in one local county, it had “identified as many as 70 county residents who were issued permits despite arrest histories, some with charges that include robbery, assault, domestic violence and other serious offenses.”
Registration: A prelude to Confiscation and Anarchy.
July 24th, 2009 10:25 AM
Anti's always like to quote "arrest historys" but they somehow forget had the people been convicted they would not be allowed to carry.
“identified as many as 70 county residents who were issued permits despite arrest histories, some with charges that include robbery, assault, domestic violence and other serious offenses.”
When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
July 24th, 2009 10:51 AM
Correct. "Arrest histories" != conviction. Last I looked, we were still innocent until proven guilty.
Also, "dozens?" If I were to sample the general population, at random, to the same sample size as CCW holders, how many with "arrest histories" would I find?
And really - This is the easiest law in the world to opt-out of. Post a sign. Is it really that hard?
I actually used this clause in NC law to eject a bailrunner from my home who was attempting to conduct an illegal entry and search - For the third time - After I told him repeatedly to exit my home and leave the premises (I was not the party he was searching for) and that I believed he was guilty of both trespassing and misdemeanor breaking and entering, he argued each time that bailrunners have the right to search whatever they want, whenever they want (Incorrect. In NC, a bailrunner can only search the primary residence of the bailjumper or a third-party residence if he has DIRECT knowledge that the bailjumper is there at the time.) - Then it clicked - This guy has to be a CCW holder. I stated clearly (and recorded it with my camera) that no concealed firearms were allowed on my property. When the cops showed up (again,) they refused to press charges because the law was so vaguely worded (And they directly admitted they didn't understand - again) until I showed them the recording of me telling him that no concealed firearms were allowed on my property, and him still refusing to leave. THAT they understood, and bam, charges filed.
I feel a little guilty about exploiting his CCW, but police had been either ignorant or apathetic about the situation in my prior two complaints.
July 24th, 2009 10:56 AM
+1 Same kind of arguement was used against the national reciprocity amendment.
Originally Posted by msgt/ret
July 24th, 2009 10:59 AM
A lot of good that did. Reminds me of this hilarious video.
Since her husband was shot to death in a Nashville sports bar this spring, ...
“We put the signs up,” he said ...
July 24th, 2009 11:15 AM
...The new laws stipulate that armed patrons have to refrain from drinking while in the bars – in effect, creating a new category of customer, the designated shooter...
This certainly hasn't happened in Florida. In fact, patron in restaurants CAN have a drink with their meal...I haven't heard of any shootouts down here.
...Since her husband was shot to death in a Nashville sports bar this spring, Nikki Goeser has become the public face of the NRA’s campaign to make it legal for Tennessee’s licensed gunmen to go armed into drinking establishments. She contends that if she’d only had a gun with her at Jonny’s Sports Bar, she could have saved her husband’s life. [...]
Well, it turns out that even the folks at Jonny’s apparently don’t buy the NRA’s logic. The Nolensville Road bar is one of many that have posted signs banning handguns on their premises...
This guy doesn't even understand his own words...laws made no difference here, only having a weapon to defend yourself would have made a difference. The GG obeyed the law, the BG didn't.
Go TN, soon all this noise will die down and we can get along with enjoying life and have the abiity to defend one's self.
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
July 25th, 2009 05:58 AM
While 'designated shooter' is not a term that inspires confidence, the concept is a good one.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
July 25th, 2009 07:43 AM
For nearly three decades, now, I've been one of the designees on outings. The designated "shooter" is a fairly ludicrous way to put it, but the concept is spot-on: freeing the attention and judgment of one or more folks to watch the perimeter and be the early warning for incoming threats. Designated "defender" or "alarm" is more appropriate to the role.
Originally Posted by obxned
July 25th, 2009 03:53 PM
Funny, but Minnesota does not have a bar restriction for carry at all. You can even drink while carrying as long as you are below 0.04 BAC. (Doing so would be stupid IMO, if I'm carrying I'm not drinking anything stronger than a Cherry Coke.) Any establishment can post no firearms allowed, but the number that do has gone down considerably since the laws were passed.
Despite all this, the record of Minnesota permit owners is nothing short of outstanding. Last year out of nearly 60,000 permit holders, 19 lost their permits for ANY reason.
An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay
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