Prepare to use what you have - Page 2

Prepare to use what you have

This is a discussion on Prepare to use what you have within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Late to the thread but some excellent points raised and covered. Threat identification and its level is paramount but mindset will determine what follows....

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  1. #16
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    Late to the thread but some excellent points raised and covered.

    Threat identification and its level is paramount but mindset will determine what follows.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


  2. #17
    Member Array old4x4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter
    if you were in this situation of BG's actively shooting people and you were there and armed and didn't shoot I have a suggestion for you.
    Go home and tear up your CCW and sell every gun you have.

    AFS
    I couldn't have said it any better myself!!

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter
    if you were in this situation of BG's actively shooting people and you were there and armed and didn't shoot I have a suggestion for you.
    Go home and tear up your CCW and sell every gun you have.

    AFS
    I think can agree somewhat with the sentiment, but not completely ...I can't say that I would have shot in that instance...as others have point out in other threads, my firearm is there to protect myself, my wife, and my son...everyone else comes in (very distantly) after them...my number one priority would be to grab my son and get out of there...if I had to put down a threat on the way out then so be it but if the gunman was not between myself and an exit (and wasnít aiming a gun in my direction) then I would make sure my family was getting to safety...but this all depends on the circumstances too...depending on how many people were in the mall, where the people were located in relation to the shooter, whether or not I was alone, etc, etc, etc. I think it's too easy for to say with 100% certainty what one would or would not do in a situation as extreme as that one and I think there are too many factors that contribute to a shoot/no shoot decision. Sure good training helps, as does being prepared mentally, but I think thereís just more to it than that. All in all I just donít know that we can fault someone after the fact for not shooting without knowing all of the facts.

    As an aside, I am aware that a lot of facts came out about one of the people that was armed (and was wounded) and he stated his reasons for not pulling the trigger in a media report. Canít say that I agree with his decision but I respect that it was his decision not to shoot even if his decision could have saved himself from being shot.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    Wow!
    Ya know, when I first started reading the original post here, I was thinking about what I might have done. First of all, I just don’t do malls but that isn’t the issue. (It could be anywhere.) If I am at the mall I am probably out with my wife on some errand. My first thought would be for her protection, getting her to a safe place while keeping tabs on the BG’s location and actions. Part of that protection would be to pull my gun and be prepared to fire while getting her to safety. I just can’t (personally) comprehend pulling your gun in a situation like that and then re-holstering.
    Now what I am thinking about the whole time is this; how many guys like me (or you) are also there at the mall, and maybe have not yet located the BG in all the confusion. If I am standing there holding a pistol, will one of you highly trained instinct driven people shoot me, mistaking me for the real BG?
    As I think this I will probably not be drawing a lot of attention to myself, and if I do take a shot, it will be from a more defensive place (like from behind one of those concrete planters.) This is the hunter in me talking, and reacting more from my hunting training than anything else. Stay concealed, don’t let the “target” spot you. You get the idea.

    I’m hoping your tactical training will prevent you mistaking me for the BG. And my hunting training will keep me from shooting one of you, if I at first mistake you for the BG.
    Know what I mean?

    Reading this, I really want to get some proper tactical training as you have spoken of here. Until then, I gotta think about what my instincts might lead me to do in a situation like this.

    Anyway, it’s a great conversation.
    Itís so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    ďThe way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,Ē the Sheriff said.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Elkhunter,

    Maybe we should look at this using the OODA loop:

    Observe: Here's where we figure out who the heck is shooting at us, who's running, and who's taking active defensive action. If you get shot then it's by someone who has not properly observed. But, friendly fire happens with some of the best trained men on earth. Why would it be any different here?

    Orient: Get in a position to shoot.

    Decide: This is where it gets dicey. I can't imagine deciding to reholster in the face of danger, but hey, that's me.

    Act: This is where you go to autopilot, letting your body move while your brain works as the disinterested observer.

    As for your concern however, reference that tower shooting in Texas years back. Texans returned fire but I've not been able to find a source stating that any were harmed by friendly fire, only by the sniper's bullets.

    Josh <><

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array WJP9's Avatar
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    Some people step aside...others step up.
    -Bill

    "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

  7. #22
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    I have read this thread with great interest and see some real thought going into the replys. My question about the whole sequence is why did the people draw? Were they close enough to observe the BG and develop an immediate understanding of the situation? If not why was the gun out of the holster? Are these people so poorly disciplined as to draw a firearm at he sound of what in reality might be a TV program, a car backfire, a gas main, a piece of fireworks, a negligent discharge by a policeman, or someone in a sporting goods store looking at a rifle that was supposed to be unloaded? Being prepared to draw is one thing, but actually pulling out a firearm is something else. What you don't know can hurt you. I realize that you have only seconds to make a decision, but as mentioned earlier there are several steps in the OODA loop. If in this case one is not close enough to take action immediately the weapon should stay concealed until you reach the D. When you have observed-determined what the threat is and where and oriented-gotten into position the firearm should be out and ready. If you haven't determined that there is a threat you should not have the firearm in your hand.

    Again I know this sounds unrealistic, but we as concealed carriers cannot be drawing at every situation that might or might not be a threat. We hear what might be a shot, we pull a handgun, only to get charged with brandishing because the "shot" was not a threat. For all we know it could have been a SWAT sniper taking out a BG in a hostage siutation outside the branch bank at the other end of the Mall. Part of the responsibility we bear as permit holders is to act responsibly with our firearms.

    Off the soap box now.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    Well. It seems it is pretty easy to come up with reasons not to shoot. And this time, we are not talking about a "what if" scenario, but a real event, where innocent people really died, and two people could have made a difference, but failed to act.

    I'm not sure exactly what to make of all this.

    For now, I'll keep my thoughts to myself until I've had some time to organize them. But in general, all I can say is that I was very glad to read AirForceShooter's post. And now I'm going to spend some time thinking of some nicer ways to say what I'm thinking.

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    While it's true that the actual act of pulling and firing, no matter how much you've trained for it, is fundamentally profound in its implications, if there is a crazy man that needs to be stopped and you're in a position to do something, you are at least morally obligated to try.

    Restraining from doing something necessary just because it's dangerous is the doman of children.

    However I can see many ways that these guys might not have had a shot, or a way to manuever themselves into a shot. You also have to accept that you're only human and sometimes you might not be able to do anything.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    But if Roland could do it... :D

    Josh <><

  11. #26
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    I think deciding to get involved in third party scenarios is a very personal decision. We've already had our thread on getting involved: "me and mine" only, "I will not stand idly by" and "it depends on the situation."

    I also think that when you take that big step and choose to carry, you should have the mindset to be able and willing to use your handgun - otherwise that gun is just a useless piece of metal on you. Two men drew on the shooter. The first gave no explanation, so the reasons could have been anything from not having a clear, safe shot to having the same reason as the second guy, who didn't shoot because he didn't know if he could take a life. They have to live with their decisions for the rest of their lives. They chose not to be involved in a third-party scenario. That scenario could very well have been a first party situation had the shooter turned his sights on them. And if the second permitholder still chose not to shoot because he didn't know if he could take a life, he'd be dead or wounded, because the shooter didn't have to wrestle with his conscience.

    If I had a clear shot - and this is easy to say while I'm sitting comfortably at my desk - I would not have allowed innocent men, women and children get murdered by that madman. I don't like idly standing by when I have the means and ability to do something about it.

    As I get older, my feelings on how directly and deeply I would get involved may change. Now that I'm married, I don't make decisions solely for me - everything I do effects my husband. Starting to think about having a family may change my feelings even more.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  12. #27
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    I agree w/ Betty and others. It is a personal decision to engage someone to defend a 3 persons life. taking on a BG who has a rifle is a risky move, especially with only a pistol.
    I think each one of us doesn't know what we will do in a situation ,until we are there. training and mindset go long way toward positive defensive reaction. I have experienced this in hand to hand encounters. Gien the time to assess and formulate a plan in some ways can and will cause hesitation. Hearing shots, I would most likely draw my gun as well. Taking on a rifle holding BG? Not unless I had a strong advantage over em.
    Hind sight is nice and examining fights is an excellent way to think what if? and plan in case. But do not judge others actions too harshly, as we were not there.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    The last few post have taken some of the pressure off me to produce a rather long rant filled with my efforts to tone myself down, so as not to cast aside that which I happen to love about this Forum.

    Translation: I was too ticked off to have made any sense.

    In any event, I guess I'll fall back on the thread Betty referred to. In that one, many gave their opinions on intervention and even those who usually maintain they would "never intervene" qualified their positions by saying there was room for exceptions, generally based on circumstance. This I understand and accept with no problem.

    I'm going to assume those opinions are still valid.

    If there are those who would stand down and let innocent people die when they have the means and opportunity to save them, well, frankly I do not want to know about it.

    If you are of the opinion that the fear of a lawsuit justifies doing nothing, I do respect your right to have and express that opinion. But I am under no obligation to respect that opinion and I most certainly do not. You have been conquered, without even a fight.

    Seems I did go on a bit of a rant after all. Well, it least it was a short one. . .

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    That was a rant???
    You took your Meds didn't you?

    :)

    AFS
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    Man, you should have seen the first version!

    If the mods didn't ban me for it, I probably would have banned myself. I do have rather strong feelings on some things, and when I do, I have a hard time containing myself.

    That's why quite happily, I'm not in charge of anything, anywhere!

    Besides, I have to remember that I'm "talking" here with people I like. As I have said before, we don't all walk in lock-step, but we do all walk together.

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

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