Encountering another CCWer while in a situation...

This is a discussion on Encountering another CCWer while in a situation... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by puncho More monday morning QBing. You're 100% correct based on the info we now have. I hope someone cuts you some slack ...

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Thread: Encountering another CCWer while in a situation...

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by puncho View Post
    More monday morning QBing. You're 100% correct based on the info we now have. I hope someone cuts you some slack when your good intentions back fire on you in life. Those two citizens would be better people, if they take the time to educate them, rather than prosecute them!
    Poncho, over the course of my life (40+ years) I have been given the benefit of the doubt on more than a few occasions when my good intentions did not turn out to be the best for the situation. For that, I am very appreciative.

    However, for every action there is a reaction and a consequence. I will concede that education and training is key and that both would be better off to be given that opportunity. That being said, we can only hope that those in charge of making that decision are as compassionate as we are willing to be.
    DM2
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  3. #47
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    Rule Number Two: See Rule Number One!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
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  4. #48
    Member Array Urk 22's Avatar
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    Wow sounds like some really screwed up scenario, but there is a simple way to not encounter this problem.......ready for it?...........DON'T TRY TO BE A POLICE OFFICER, WHEN YOU ARE NOT!!!! If your life or someone you love lifes not in danger, leave the apprehension of criminals for the police, after all they get paid for it.

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    I thought you should only draw your weapon when in danger for your life, not an others bag.
    I do hope these guys learn something and do not loose their CC privileges.
    It’s so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    “The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,” the Sheriff said.

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    I thought you should only draw your weapon when in danger for your life, not an others bag.
    I do hope these guys learn something and do not loose their CC privileges.
    It’s so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    “The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,” the Sheriff said.

  7. #51
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    Dissenting Opinion

    I agree that GG #1 drawing his gun was way over the top, and announcing that he was an LEO when he wasn't was ... well, a bad idea at best. However, I feel differently about not intervening.

    I know the law is not in favor of it... anymore, that is. Long gone are the times when all able people took pride in stopping criminals and participated in community security. Now we have the government police to handle that and we've been conditioned to "call 911 and be a good witness". Legally, I get it; we're very limited in what we can do. For our personal safety I get it as well; naturally it can be very dangerous to get involved.

    However, I wish more people felt a personal duty to help others in need... not just pass it on to the police, especially when they witness a crime against another and they are able to do something other than make a phone call.

    NC law does not allow a private citizen to arrest another, but it does allow a private person to detain another person (in a reasonable manner) when they believe they've witnessed certain crimes, one of which is theft of property. It would've been perfectly legal in NC for GG #1 to jump out and, say, tackle the BG and hold him on the ground until LEO arrives. Few, if any, would advise that these days (certainly not the police), but it would be legal.

    I believe the "stay out of it" attitude is in no small way responsible for the boldness of criminals today. Stealing someone's bag in the middle of the day is so easy to do when there are no police around and you know the chances of somebody else giving a flip is slim to none.

    I have a family, and I value my life; I don't want to get injured or killed or arrested over a petty theft, but I'm saddened that we've left so much up to the government and everybody seems okay with that.

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRonB View Post
    I agree that GG #1 drawing his gun was way over the top, and announcing that he was an LEO when he wasn't was ... well, a bad idea at best. However, I feel differently about not intervening.

    I know the law is not in favor of it... anymore, that is. Long gone are the times when all able people took pride in stopping criminals and participated in community security. Now we have the government police to handle that and we've been conditioned to "call 911 and be a good witness". Legally, I get it; we're very limited in what we can do. For our personal safety I get it as well; naturally it can be very dangerous to get involved.

    However, I wish more people felt a personal duty to help others in need... not just pass it on to the police, especially when they witness a crime against another and they are able to do something other than make a phone call.

    NC law does not allow a private citizen to arrest another, but it does allow a private person to detain another person (in a reasonable manner) when they believe they've witnessed certain crimes, one of which is theft of property. It would've been perfectly legal in NC for GG #1 to jump out and, say, tackle the BG and hold him on the ground until LEO arrives. Few, if any, would advise that these days (certainly not the police), but it would be legal.

    I believe the "stay out of it" attitude is in no small way responsible for the boldness of criminals today. Stealing someone's bag in the middle of the day is so easy to do when there are no police around and you know the chances of somebody else giving a flip is slim to none.

    I have a family, and I value my life; I don't want to get injured or killed or arrested over a petty theft, but I'm saddened that we've left so much up to the government and everybody seems okay with that.
    The second guy to intervene could've gotten the first guy and himself BOTH killed. What if when the second guy told guy one to cease and desist, it allowed the perp to grab guy one's gun and shoot him dead, and very possibly also shoot guy two dead?

    What if guy one actually HAD been a cop, then guy two came over and drew a gun on him, and the same scenario happened---the perp was able to seize the cop's gun and kill him?

    Then we'd have a dead cop who was simply doing his job, thanks to a dopey CC permit holder who wanted to play Dirty Harry.

    A concealed carry license gives you a permit to carry a gun to protect the lives of yourself and others when those lives are CLEARLY THREATENED. The CC permit is NOT a police badge.

    If it's clearly a petty property crime and the suspect is fleeing and not threatening anyone, mind your own business. Be a good witness, that's all the police need from you.

    No petty property theft is worth ANYBODY'S life. When improperly trained citizens play Dirty Harry, bad things tend to happen.

  9. #53
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    This thread, and the responses makes me smile.

    It does a lot to restore my faith in people carrying concealed weapons, by the majority of responses here. I will say however that the two mopes that were involved in this situation need to be taken out and placed under the woodshed. Not on, about or near, but under, very deeply under. It would suprise me not at all if they were related and the Family Tree didn't branch.

    As for Holger, and Ayoob's statement. I too seem to recall that from some of his earlier work. I can tell you however that he has also said that you never want to identify yourself as a Police Officer when you are not. Calling for the Police and telling the criminal to stop could sound like you're identifying yourself as a Police Officer when you are in fact calling for them.

    Gee, people wonder why I'm an advocate of training? The actions of the mopes in this scenario is a pretty good example as to why.

    Biker

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    I hate to sound like a jerk, but in NC it's absolutely not my duty. There is no citizens arrest here. I cannot hold anyone at gun point unless it is after attacking me or my family. If I shoot someone in a situation like this and the person I am "defending" started it I am in big trouble. Think manslaughter on a good day, murder on a bad one. You loose your right to self defense by starting the problem in NC. Therefore noone can defend them. It's a tough situation and better to stay our of it. The dude stopped his car and got out. Not a good idea. If you don't have ALL the facts you need to just watch and get on the phone.
    +1 correct statment.
    look take notes even, but I am not getting involved.
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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskoolfan View Post
    Link to Article


    Us sheepdogs got to be careful out there. It is dangerous for us to enter these situations but it is our duty as CCW permit holders.
    Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I do not think it is our duty to get involved in this type thing and especially pulling our firearms on someone over petty theft. We may have a moral obligation to help someone in a violent situation, but we are not LEO and should not act like one. The situation posted is perfect ammunition for those opposed to concealed carry, Not one but two permit holders pulling their guns when they should have remained kept holstered.
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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by elkhunter View Post
    I thought you should only draw your weapon when in danger for your life, not an others bag.
    I do hope these guys learn something and do not loose their CC privileges.
    I will be surprised if both of these guys CC privileges are not revolked, especially the one who claimed he was a police officer. He may not only lose his CC permit, but will lose his right to own a firearm if he is prosecuted and convicted of a felony for impersonating a police officer. Bad situation all around.

    To make it worse, the scumbag thief who started this may file some kind of civil suit.
    NRA life member.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRonB View Post
    However, I wish more people felt a personal duty to help others in need... not just pass it on to the police, especially when they witness a crime against another and they are able to do something other than make a phone call.

    ....snip...

    I have a family, and I value my life; I don't want to get injured or killed or arrested over a petty theft, but I'm saddened that we've left so much up to the government and everybody seems okay with that.
    I understand the sentiment, I used to carry first aid gear and have stopped for a few accidents. My first aid training has expired so I have no legal recourse, training, to protect me. I reserve most of what I know to dealing with friends and family. YOu can blame some of the lack of involvement on the current legal system. People are so interested in suing that it makes someone like me hesitant to get involved unless I am sure what is going on. We have a good samaritan law, but it only applies to reasonable responses.

    To deal specifically with getting involved to stop a crime. My personal feeling is that carrying a firearm makes me better able to defend myself, but less likely to get involved in a physical altercation for someone else. Currently I can only OC, I am in the eternal CCP wait. Even when CC'ing though you have to be conscious of dealing with and retaining the firearm as well as dealing with the BG. I don't want to risk a physical altercation and loose possession of the firearm. While carrying I personally consider a physical altercation life threatening. What happens if the BG disables me and disarms me? Bad news for sure. I carry pepper spray and may use it to deal with the situation, but I'm not getting physical while armed unless it's with a BG who is after me.

    I wish folks would use the camera and video features on their phones more. A good pic would make quite the witness. Ultimately let the law and your conscience be your guide. If you cannot live with not getting involved, then it may be a good sign you need to do something.

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holger View Post
    While I completely agree with everyone's sentiments here regarding what happened, I think I remember reading an Ayoob article in which he explicitly said an armed citizen yelling "Stop! Police!" is acceptable since you could justifiably claim you were yelling for someone ELSE to actually call the police.

    Now, I'm 99% sure Ayoob would disagree with what the citizen did in this instance (the other 1% allowing for the fact I don't know the man), and I don't think he meant to to try to pass yourself off as a cop in yelling the above statement. But did Ayoob write that or am I mistaken? I'll try to dig it up later.
    You are not mistaken. In his book, "In the Gravest Extreme", Ayoob said that yelling, "Stop! Police!" can make the bad guy think you are a cop but you can justifiably claim that you were yelling for the bad guy to stop and then you yelled for the police.

    As far as what these guys did, the idea of putting myself or others at increased risk merely to recover a dufflebag, is insanity.

    My action, after ripping off my shirt to expose the big "S" on my chest would be grab cell phone, call 911, be a good witness, reward my self with a cup of coffee.

    The first guy was just plain stupid for pulling a gun on a fleeing thief.

    The second guy wasn't as stupid but he should have thought the situation through a bit more.

    He saw someone on the ground being held at gun point and determined that the guy on the ground was being mugged.

    The first thing I would have thought was that a cop had a bad guy under control.

    I may have stayed around to watch and call 911 if I turned out to be wrong, but my gun would have stayed quietly in my holster.

    I guess these guys were dumb and dumber!
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRonB View Post
    Long gone are the times when all able people took pride in stopping criminals and participated in community security.
    Long gone, too, are the days when those in government restrained themselves from legally attacking good sams with criminal claims that could take everything they have. Change that, and we'll change much.

    I suppose what's necessary is a LEGAL requirement that the "affirmative" defense claimed by a defendant shall be taken as initial fact; that the DA/legal folks be forced to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it cannot have been justified; force the system to charge nobody a damned thing, unless and until they're convicted by a jury. Some states have this. Laughably, sadly, most don't.

    However, I wish more people felt a personal duty to help others in need.
    I do, as many here do. But my government feels the need to come after my a$$, legally, since I'm the one left standing. That makes me think twice what I'm prepared to lose. I couldn't give two shakes about the claims of criminality, the loss of job, money or all the rest. I care about the elimination of my liberty. So long as DA/legal folks are in positions of absolute power to punitively harm folks who have dared be good sams, to the tune of permanent loss of liberty, it'll put a damper on the responses of otherwise upstanding and caring people.

    I have a family, and I value my life; I don't want to get injured or killed or arrested over a petty theft, but I'm saddened that we've left so much up to the government and everybody seems okay with that.
    I'm mad as hell, and I make sure the folks in elected positions know why. I try to make as cogent and concise an explanation of my fury as possible. I do so as frequently as I'm able. It's a heinous misrepresentation of all that's honorable and decent to dare string up good sams by the toes merely because they're still standing, starting with the presumption that they're guilty as charged unless THEY prove themselves innocent (which is the case, in states where "affirmative" defenses must be proven by the defendant).

    I'm not good with that situation at all. I won't ever be. It's flat dereliction of duty of the office to go after upstanding people in that manner. It's a failing of our legislatures to allow such weasels to place crosshairs on the foreheads of upstanding good sams. IMO, it is wrong ... and it always will be.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; August 8th, 2009 at 05:53 PM. Reason: spelln; grahmur
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  16. #60
    Member Array NCRonB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defensive Arms View Post
    The second guy to intervene could've gotten the first guy and himself BOTH killed. What if when the second guy told guy one to cease and desist, it allowed the perp to grab guy one's gun and shoot him dead, and very possibly also shoot guy two dead?

    What if guy one actually HAD been a cop, then guy two came over and drew a gun on him, and the same scenario happened---the perp was able to seize the cop's gun and kill him?

    Then we'd have a dead cop who was simply doing his job, thanks to a dopey CC permit holder who wanted to play Dirty Harry.

    A concealed carry license gives you a permit to carry a gun to protect the lives of yourself and others when those lives are CLEARLY THREATENED. The CC permit is NOT a police badge.
    Those are all bad outcomes, which is why I stated it was over the top to use a gun in this situation. I don't believe if GG #1 were a real LEO he would've pulled his gun, but I could be wrong. GG #2 also blew it by pulling his gun when he didn't know the totality of the situation. I'm in agreement will all of the sentiments on the use of guns in this scenario. However...

    If it's clearly a petty property crime and the suspect is fleeing and not threatening anyone, mind your own business. Be a good witness, that's all the police need from you.
    ... this is where our sentiments differ. It is my business that some thug has stolen someone else's bag. It's my community and I don't want thieves running around taking stuff that doesn't belong to them.

    I'm not advocating the use of guns just because you have one or pretending to be police. I don't expect most people will agree with me, and with our current laws and ever-increasing government control over our lives, I understand why. I'm merely saddened by the state of our union that actively discourages and even punishes personal involvement, and that so many seem to accept that as "right" and as the government's job.

    Imagine, if you will, a land where everyone felt a personal duty to capture and detain someone committing a crime in their presence... a land where the people, government, and police encouraged involvement, instead of shunning it. I would hate to be a criminal in that land. In fact, I believe this used to be that land.

    We all know that criminals are more afraid when they know the average citizen might be armed; it stands to reason that they would be more afraid knowing the average citizen would do something to stop them.

    Good times.

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