Encountering another CCWer while in a situation...

This is a discussion on Encountering another CCWer while in a situation... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Link to Article 04:51 PM MDT on Saturday, July 18, 2009 Scott Evans/KTVB BOISE –– A bizarre turn of events Friday afternoon in downtown Boise ...

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Thread: Encountering another CCWer while in a situation...

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array Oldskoolfan's Avatar
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    Encountering another CCWer while in a situation...

    Link to Article
    04:51 PM MDT on Saturday, July 18, 2009

    Scott Evans/KTVB

    BOISE –– A bizarre turn of events Friday afternoon in downtown Boise after a man steals another man's duffle bag.

    Two bystanders pulled their guns to stop the crime.

    Police say what started this was a case of petit theft.

    One man is now accused of stealing a bag from a homeless man near the corner of Americana Boulevard and River Street.

    Misunderstanding could lead to assault charges

    It was after this occurred that Paul Brookhouse stepped in to make a citizens arrest.

    He now faces possible felony charges.

    "Somewhat confusing when it all was wrapped up," said Lt. Ron Winegar with the Boise Police Department.

    On Friday afternoon just before one, Brookhouse says he witnessed a crime.

    "The other guy grabbed a bag, a duffle bag and started running across the street. The one gentleman turned around and started yelling, ‘stop hey, stop that's my stuff’," Brookhouse said.

    Brookhouse pulled his car over and intervened.

    But in the heat of the moment this concealed weapons permit holder made an erroneous claim.

    "I pulled my weapon and I told the gentleman, I made a mistake here, I said, "Boise Police. Stop. You're under arrest." So, he did, I asked him to get on the ground, we did all the hands behind your back thing. I frisked him and then held him at gun point until the police department got here," Brookhouse said.

    Police identified the man Brookhouse stopped as 46-year-old John Dickey.

    But before police arrived another man driving by saw Brookhouse holding Dickey at gun point.

    He too held a concealed weapons permit.

    "Saw that taking place and thought there was a crime happening and so he intervened, pulling his handgun and trying to detain the first citizen who had pulled the handgun to try and detain the initial suspect," Winegar said.

    When police arrived they had both men put down their guns.

    "While this citizen, this subject had good intentions in helping out with the crime, we just want everybody to be careful and realize the consequences of pulling a handgun, even if you have a legal and lawful permit,” Winegar said. ”It's always probably a better idea to be a good witness and call us and let us intervene.”

    Brookhouse admitted to police he told the man that he was an officer.

    He said it just came out because he wanted to stop him.

    Because he said that, Brookhouse could face felony charges of impersonating a police officer.

    He and the other man who drew his weapon could also face aggravated assault charges.

    That decision will be left to the Ada County Prosecuting Attorney's Office.

    It's important to mention that neither of the men who drew their guns were arrested.

    As for the suspected thief, John Dickey, he is charged with misdemeanor petit theft.

    Boise Police say they are grateful that citizens jumped in to help stop a crime.

    At the same time, they say that the guns didn't need to be involved, especially with this type of crime.

    "If a police officer were making an arrest for petty theft or misdemeanor theft and pulled his gun and pointed it at someone with no apparent reason to do so, then we would certainly be under pretty heavy review for doing that," Winegar said.
    Us sheepdogs got to be careful out there. It is dangerous for us to enter these situations but it is our duty as CCW permit holders.

    What would you all have done? How would you do things differently?

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Rule number ONE:

    YOU are NOT a police officer!

    Seriously, crime happens and you are supposed to let the police deal with it. A CCW does not make you a "citizen crime stopper/pseudo policeman."

    Being a good witness is about as far as I will go unless directly threatened.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    This has wannabe Cop written all over it.
    WE DO NOT HAVE A DUTY TO INTERVENE IN A CRIME,Not even the cops have a duty to protect as per case law.If you intervene you better know who the BG is and the GG is and even first looks aren't always what they seem,that's why when LEO's respond they ask ?'s to get the facts.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskoolfan View Post
    It is dangerous for us to enter these situations but it is our duty as CCW permit holders.
    I hate to sound like a jerk, but in NC it's absolutely not my duty. There is no citizens arrest here. I cannot hold anyone at gun point unless it is after attacking me or my family. If I shoot someone in a situation like this and the person I am "defending" started it I am in big trouble. Think manslaughter on a good day, murder on a bad one. You loose your right to self defense by starting the problem in NC. Therefore noone can defend them. It's a tough situation and better to stay our of it. The dude stopped his car and got out. Not a good idea. If you don't have ALL the facts you need to just watch and get on the phone.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    I hope he doesn't pay a heavy price for his urge to help. But it sure sounds like he overstepped a couple of very important boundaries.
    "I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."

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    New Member Array blitzpackage's Avatar
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    It is dangerous for us to enter these situations but it is our duty as CCW permit holders.
    It is not our duty as CCW permit holders to draw weapons and detain people. If someone elects to do so, they should be prepared to live with the repercussions. The name of this forum is a better guide: Defensive Carry!

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    Member Array llongshot's Avatar
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    Don't matter where you live. If your driving by a non life threatening situation and stop, jump out, and identify yourself as someone you're not you need to be prosecuted and have your permit pulled. In my opinion the second person was waaaaaay closer to being in the right. Man on the ground with non uniformed person aiming a gun at him screams robbery and/or murder. It's why the cops want us to stay out of the crap that isn't self defense and I agree.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Aggravated Assault, Impersonating a Police Officer. All over a petit theft. I'm all for stopping crime, but there are more ways than one to contribute to that end.

    *****

    Your brain is your primary weapon. Don't leave home without it.

    *****
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Member Array Tombstone55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Aggravated Assault, Impersonating a Police Officer. All over a petit theft. I'm all for stopping crime, but there are more ways than one to contribute to that end.

    *****

    Your brain is your primary weapon. Don't leave home without it.

    *****

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Aggravated Assault, Impersonating a Police Officer. All over a petit theft. I'm all for stopping crime, but there are more ways than one to contribute to that end.

    *****

    Your brain is your primary weapon. Don't leave home without it.

    *****
    Exactly.
    Bingo.
    100% correct.

    What the heck is guy number on thinking deploying a firearm against a _fleeing_ unarmed non-imminent threat (!). Geebus.
    And over petty theft of a bag. This is just like those guys who go all Batman style to apprehend purse snatchers.

    Never mind yelling out that he's a police. A MAJOR error!!!
    Do not do this folks. Never and for no reason, especially not something minor as a petty theft. Geez.

    Oh and that citizens arrest junk is bunk.
    Why do people not know that the areas of applicability for as much is extremely narrow as in regard to the _law_.

    Then there is the second guy driving by and he jumps out too...Who the heck is he, Starsky or Hutch.
    He sees a guy with a gun. But does not pay attention to the _totality_ of the picture as in there is a man prostrate with hands behind the back, too. Duh. That right there is a pretty strong clue toward the gun guy being a plain clothes POLICE (!).

    Folks at home take this story as a very good lesson of exactly what _not_ to do as on multiple levels.
    Yeah your emotions/instinct might kick in but we're adults not children or animals. We have ability to temper our emotion/instinct with knowledge of proper and best operational measures.
    Neither of these guys demonstrated proper never mind best operational measures.

    Do not be these guys...fools.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #11
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskoolfan View Post
    Us sheepdogs got to be careful out there. It is dangerous for us to enter these situations but it is our duty as CCW permit holders.

    What would you all have done? How would you do things differently?
    No, it's NOT our duty to play "Dirty Harry" when we witness an act of petty theft.

    Concealed weapons permits are for carrying guns for self-defense, they're not a police badge.

    What I would've done is "drawn" my cellphone and called 911, and gotten a good description of the perp for the police, as well as any other relevant details.

    If a woman was being violently assaulted by a thug, and it was obvious she'd be badly hurt or killed before the police could respond, THEN it would be your duty to intervene.

    Even then, before you decide to draw, you better be darn sure you know what you're doing.

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    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    Trust me, I'll not be intervening in a property crime!
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

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    Member Array dhshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskoolfan View Post
    It is dangerous for us to enter these situations but it is our duty as CCW permit holders.
    I disagree with this statement. Your duty as a CCW holder is to protect yourself and/or others from serious physical injury or death.

    The BG was running away. This was a misdemeanor crime in progress not a felony. Saying: "STOP! POLICE! GET ON THE GROUND!" to stop a fleeing thief and you're not a police officer...be ready to face felony charges!

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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskoolfan View Post
    It is dangerous for us to enter these situations but it is our duty as CCW permit holders.
    There is no such injunction, edict, decree or other such printed anywhere on MY carry permit or in any statute of the State of Connecticut.

    Such attitudes are what get well-meaning, but not-very-smart, people killed.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    I seem to recall anti-gunners who predicted (after the passing of concealed carry laws) that folks with a license would be drawing down on each other. I join in with Janq, ccw9mm, and the others who advise folks that we are not cops, and please don't be giving anti-gunners ammo to use against us.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

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