How to talk to pastor
This is a discussion on How to talk to pastor within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's not against the law to carry without permission. You could just make it a non-issue all together...
"Carrying of a concealed firearm in a ...
August 21st, 2009 12:13 PM
It's not against the law to carry without permission. You could just make it a non-issue all together...
"Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. "
Unless you are made and asked to leave and then you REFUSE to leave, you are fine. I didn't understand it that way until recently.
August 21st, 2009 12:14 PM
If there is a law in your state that says you cannot carry without the church leadership's permission, you need to secure permission (Rom 13:1,2). It's a good idea anyway since the pastor may want to know what would happen in that situation. You may want to work out a contingency plan.
I am an elder in my church and after the Maryville shooting recently (I'm from Missouri too), I went to the board and suggested one or more persons be allowed to carry. The pastor thought it was a good idea. We only ask that whoever carries be a member in good standing, get permission on an individual basis, and for people that we don't know their skills, we ask to go shooting with them. We really don't want a total beginner carrying in our church. It works mostly because we are a small church.
Are their people who carry anyway? Quite possibly, but if they do so knowing state law requires them to get permission, they are also breaking God's law (Rom 13:1,2), and that's a much bigger deal.
If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you will undoubtedly have the support of Paul.
August 21st, 2009 02:31 PM
I'm glad I read this thread. I live in Kansas and our laws recently changed concerning carrying in churches. i.e., that if the church doesn't want people carrying, they have to post a certain sign that can be obtained from the AG's website. Otherwise, we're legal to carry in that "non-posted" church building.
However, I was thinking of letting my pastor know that I was carrying, just in case something were to happen. This thread has given me some good ideas.
August 21st, 2009 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by adaman04
(14) Any church or other place of religious worship without the consent of the minister or person or persons representing the religious organization that exercises control over the place of religious worship. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;
if the gun is left in the car, its not a crminal offense... so i am reading here is if you are made then because you took it out of the vehicle it is a criminal offense.
so what am i missing here... just want to make sure ......
Last edited by jjkjr; August 21st, 2009 at 03:53 PM.
Reason: forgot to put in missouri
Ruger LCP 380
NAA 22 mini mag w/holster grip
S&W 38 model 10
August 21st, 2009 03:59 PM
My church has been informed I carry when I suggested that I form a safety/security team. One of the staff now has that, and I've signed up, but I don't know how they will take it and they have so far not asked me to present to them my proposals. Since they are talking more along the lines of parking lot security, we'll see. I'll be armed regardless of an organized team or not.
An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay
August 21st, 2009 08:48 PM
As a former pastor and past decon of the church I currently attend. A pastor's/Elder's/member of leadership's lack of desire/fear of someone carrying a gun in church may come from a number of reasons.
1) What if congregation member X finds out and is offended/scared/whatever?
2) Why does s/he want to carry (Church or anywhere)
3) Fear of Guns "Guns kill people don't they?" That's what the Brady people say.
4) Military folks (Vets of War) while they see guns as tools; they see them as tools carried with the intent to kill them all and let God sort them out --- (this is a parapharse of a statement made by a vet who is gun shy shall we say.)
5) Simply feel they can't trust the person(s) in question.
6) The leader is Anti-gun or the leadership above them is Anti-gun.
The only one that would come to mind for me is #1 cause that person is usually the one who gives large amounts or who every body thinks does (found the latter to be true on a couple of occations)
My pastor and I talk guns. He has asked to see both of my carry guns and I have shown him ---- almost got caught; the other guy who almost caught us is a pro gun guy so he would have just want to play too. After the Marysville attack my pastor asked if I would watch his back and I said yes, when I am here. The Marysville shooting made me think about how we as baptists (different part of the clan from that church) handle people come to the front at odd times --- most think nothing of it but now I get a bit aware of movement off my six when in church or if Ushering my 12 o'clock.
I have also said we need to think about a response team for emergancies that might occur --- we a elder congregation and have had to have some one ill removed by ambu from a service. We have a number of past heart attack servivors and like me some who are heart attackes in the making --- do we have people who could respond and how do they know there is a need to do so?
By this point I am off thread so . . .
August 21st, 2009 09:22 PM
I just removed 32 posts from this thread that were off topic (many inflammatory) from the OP's question. The posts ranged from "leave the church", "carry anyway", "which law is more important?" and other, more volatile comments. If you don't see your previous post, it was Off Topic.
Keep posts on topic.
The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD
August 22nd, 2009 09:01 AM
August 22nd, 2009 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Cajun
Thanks for the link. My best buddy/friend teaches CCW and he and another highly qualified instructor are starting to contact ministers here, and present them with some information and courses on church security.
I forwarded that link to him and think he will get some good information there. Thanks, again.
August 22nd, 2009 06:07 PM
You might want to ask your priest if any one has ever brought the subject up. Kind of get a feel for where he stands of the subject.
It's only going to take about two seconds to know his position.
If he says no, than you are right whsre you started.
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
August 22nd, 2009 06:17 PM
Well I see my post was removed. Here is my advice, just go ask the pastor if you can carry. Perhaps over a cup of coffee or brunch after a service. Or try taking him to the range and seeing where he stands on guns.
August 22nd, 2009 06:33 PM
If the church doesn't have a security strategy in place going in with one, might be a little overwhelming to the pastor. As a pastor myself, might I say, just go and talk to your pastor about you carrying. Take baby steps. Let him become comfortable with that and then move forward to the next step.
So many things(insurance concerns for one) can derail your plan if you start to big.OMO
We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!
August 22nd, 2009 10:09 PM
Yes but the difference is that one if licensed and bonded in security versus a volunteer team. Not to mention any
Originally Posted by jjkjr
security company worth their salt has a great deal of insurance.
I would talk to my pastor but I would be hesitant to say that I would act as a security guard or a volunteer security force.
Either way let us know what decision you come to and the results.
August 22nd, 2009 10:45 PM
As a Pastor, I have begun the process of talking to the deacon ministry and letting them know of my concerns of the escalation of events such as were listed early in the thread. I have called local Law Enforcement and shared those concerns and have tried to get them to come and inform us a to what we can do to develop Security and to emphasize the urgency of preparation. Some of the Deacons have been hesitant saying the "shooting were because of bad feelings or some other premeditation"! These days folks are well aware that Church just might present an opportunity for cash at gun point. That being said, Church folks need to think about that reality could happen at anytime.
Btw: Local Law Enforcement, although they agreed with me of the need and told me we were the second church to recently contact them about such, has yet to continue to communicate with me after having told me they would get back with me. I'm going to have to remind them of the follow through!
Anyway, as was said, not all Pastor's are Anti-Gun! For that matter not all Deacons or other church leaders are as well. That being said, we know the Bad Guys are not Anti-Gun and are always planning something and they are counting on us to be doing nothing concerning antiscipationg them!
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to, this is the last stand on earth." Ronald Reagan
"Gentlemen, Prepare to defend yourselves" SGM Basil Plumley
August 23rd, 2009 06:51 AM
My Bishop has a CCW permit.
I know, because he told me after I said something about having one.
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