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How to talk to pastor

6K views 55 replies 34 participants last post by  miklcolt45 
#1 ·
First of all, I just wanted to say thank you all for all the good information that is provided on this site. I have enjoyed reading through it.

I need some help from you. Here in Missouri, we are required to talk to the pastor of our church before we are allowed to carry. I have been carrying everywhere for a while except for church since I really didn't want to deal with the hassle of talking with the pastor about it. :boese51: However, after reading through a lot of these threads, I've changed my mind about not approaching him to talk about it. I just want to make sure I approach it the best way I can.

Unfortunately, I don't know where he stands on guns but in general, our congregation is conservative and gun friendly. We don't have a security team that I know of.

For those of you out there that have brought it up with your leadership, how did you go about it? Even if you haven't and just carry to church anyway, do you have any suggestions? Do you throw stats at them, keep it simple and just ask, etc? I would rather be above board and ask him since we are friends.

Thanks for your help

Steve
 
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#2 ·
Maybe this will help -

Church shootings:
• May 31: A 51-year-old man shot and killed well-known abortion doctor George Tiller while Tiller served as an usher
• March 8, 2009 – Maryville, Illinois – First Baptist Church – 1 killed - Terry Sedlacek shot Pastor Fred Winters and when his gun jammed, tried to stabbed himself and two men who tried to subdue him.
• January 10, 2009 – Henrico, Virginia - First Free Will Baptist Church – 1 stabbed - Rev. James Bullock was in the church alone about 8:15 a.m. when two men came in and demanded money. Bullock was beaten and stabbed twice after he told the men there was no safe in the church.
• December 24, 2008 – College Park, Maryland - Holy Redeemer Catholic Church – 1 injured - Shanon Washington beat and mugged Wayne Williams in the parking lot of the church. Washington is charged with attempted murder, assault and robbery in the attack.
• December 21, 2008 – Henderson, Texas - Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – An armed gunman fires a shot outside the church, then came inside and demanded everyone’s wallet.
• November 23, 2008 -Clifton, New Jersey- St. Thomas Syrian Orthodox Knanaya Church – 2 killed, 1 injured - Joseph Pallipurath killed his wife and one unrelated man and injured a third person. After his capture, he said that he would have killed all the worshipers if he had had a machine gun.
• July 28, 2008 – Knoxville, Tennessee - Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church – 2 killed, 6 injured--Jim D. Adkisson pulled a 12-guage shotgun from a guitar case and killed 2, injured 6.
• June 24, 2008 – Lanham, Maryland – Two armed gunmen, Alozie Chinagozim Onuoha and Ugo Onuoha burst into the church business office on a Monday and demanded money. They escaped with thousands of dollars but were later arrested. At the time of the robbery, there were dozens of children attending a church summer camp at the facility.
• Dec. 9, 2007: A 24-year-old gunman opened fire at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. Two people were killed, and four were wounded. An armed church security volunteer wounded the gunman before he turned the gun on himself.
• October 18, 2007 – Rocky Mount North Carolina - Debbie Kornegay was stabbed to death in the Lakeside Baptist Church kitchen by Tommy Lee Holiday, a homeless man that Debbie and Eve Beasley (also wounded) were trying to help.
• August 12, 2007 - Neosho, Missouri - First Congregational Church - 3 killed, 5 injured - Eiken Elam Saimon shot and killed the pastor and two deacons and wounded five others.
• January 28, 2007 – Columbus, Ohio - Christ the King Church - Wendell Hollingsworth and Celeste Smith barged into the church with a gun, and announced, "This is a robbery." Smith began to grab purses while the Hollingsworth demanded wallets at gunpoint. The congregation didn't let them get away, as ushers tackled the pair and held them until police arrived.
• October 19, 2006 – Chicago, Illinois – Israel of God’s Church – Two armed gunmen entered the church during evening services, forced everyone at gunpoint to the front of the church. After firing a shot in the air, demanded money and valuables and then fled the scene.
• May 21, 2006 - Baton Rouge, Louisiana - The Ministry of Jesus Christ Church - 4 killed - The four at the church who were shot were members of Erica Bell's family; she was abducted and murdered elsewhere; Bell's mother, church pastor Claudia Brown, was seriously wounded - Anthony Bell, 25, was the shooter.
• February 26, 2006 - Detroit, Michigan - Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church - 2 killed + shooter - Kevin L. Collins, who reportedly went to the church looking for his girlfriend, later killed himself.
• August 29, 2005 – Sash, Texas - Sash Assembly of God Church – 4 killed + shooter --A.P. Crenshaw who lived across the street from the Sash Assembly of God church, exchanged words in the church parking lot with a church member who asked Crenshaw to leave. Crenshaw returned a short time later and the church member, at close range, and then shot Pastor, James Armstrong. Crenshaw then drove to an intersection, where he shot and killed the two women in a truck after they tried to flee and hide. Crenshaw was reported to have been hunting on foot for the Pastor’s wife. A 10-member SWAT team made two attempts to enter Crenshaw's house but retreated when he shot at them, Moore said. Police finally entered the house to find Crenshaw dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to head.
• March 12, 2005 - Brookfield, Wisconsin - Living Church of God - 7 killed + shooter - Terry Ratzmann opened fire on the congregation, killing seven, including Pastor Randy L. Gregory and his son James Gregory, and wounding four before taking his own life.
• July 30, 2005 - College Park, Georgia - World Changers Church International - shooter killed - Air Force Staff Sgt. John Givens was shot five times by a police officer after charging the officer, following violent behavior.
• December 18, 2004 – Garden Grove, California, Crystal Cathedral— The longtime conductor of the Crystal Cathedral Orchestra, Johnny Carl, kills himself at the cathedral in Garden Grove, Calif., after an argument with another employee and a nine-hour standoff.
• Oct. 5, 2003 - Atlanta, Georgia - Turner Monumental AME Church - 2 killed + shooter - Shelia Wilson walked into the church while preparations are being made for service and shot the pastor, her mother and then herself.
• June 10, 2002 - Conception, Missouri - Benedictine monastery - 2 killed + shooter - Lloyd Robert Jeffress shot four monks in the monastery killing two and wounding two, before killing himself.
• March 12, 2002 - Lynbrook, New York - Our Lady of Peace Catholic Church - 2 killed - Peter Troy, a former mental patient, opens fire during Mass, killing the priest and a parishioner. He later receives a life sentence.
• May 18, 2001 - Hopkinsville, Kentucky - Greater Oak Missionary Baptist Church - 2 killed - Frederick Radford stood up in the middle of a revival service and began shooting at his estranged wife, Nicole Radford, killing her and a woman trying to help her.
 
#3 ·
Take a copy of the above post from mkh and start the conversation with sharing that info...then go from there.
That ought to help.:yup:
 
#9 ·
I have certainly thought about that route as well....
Almost afraid it will be too much at once. He could say anything from "Absolutely, carry" to "Let me think about it" to "Don't even bring that up"

We are big enough though that it wouldn't hurt.
 
#8 ·
Those are some great examples mkh on why we need to start thinking about these types of things. It is a great church with great people, I just don't think we as a congregation think a lot about those types of scenarios. When I was going through the classes for becoming a deacon several years ago, we were told one of our duties was the physical setting of the service. Because of this, I feel a need to at least address it with the pastors. And I absolutely agree with you pkon about giving reasons, not just asking if it is 'ok'.

Thanks again for your guys' suggestions. I will let you know how it goes this weekend.

Steve
 
#12 ·
I would tend to think a Church may have huge liability concerns with a sanctioned volunteer (armed) security team. I noticed one of the large churches in my neighborhood used to have members escort people across the street from an adjacent parking lot. Now they use an off duty City Police Officer. I see him patrolling the grounds on sundays and wednesdays. Once the insurance folks get involved these issues can evolve.
 
#14 ·
You are right tha insurance companies can thrrow a monkey wrench into just about anything.

The idea is not to have an armed security team but a security teamed that just happens to have CCWs.
 
#13 ·
As a pastor, I would say your best bet, until you know his stance, is to ask him if there had been any thought about putting together a security and safety team. They would deal with everything from how to respond to a fire, tornado, child custody dispute on church grounds, to active shooter, etc. You might even add something along the lines of, "With all that's going on in our world, I am concerned for your safety, as well as the safety of the rest of the congregation."

See what he says. Once you get some idea about where he stands, you might be able to talk further, even take him to the range.

If he is interested, you are on your way. If not, you can do what you're doing now-not carrying.

ETA: Your denomination/affiliation may make a huge difference in the likelihood of his response. Some more liberal denominations would probably have a hissy fit (like mine, for instance), if they knew. Others, not as much.
 
#15 ·
I would just like to add that once you bring it up, if he reacts in any way that is less than enthusiastic about it, I would put emphasis on you desiring to do this legally and that you won't be carrying if he says no. In my experience with a few people that are definitely anti, once the subject of firearms comes up it can be easy for them to assume that "no matter what, you'll have a gun". And in case he happens to not be familiar with it, I'd bring a copy of your state's statute that says you need his permission to carry in the church. Definitely no harm by having a few extra pieces of paper ready if he wants more info :)
 
#18 ·
I'd say work it in easy to guage his reaction. Maybe in addition to talking about forming a security team, you could ask him what he thinks of the people carrying at the recent town hall meetings.

Just a thought. If he is interested in knowing a pastor's perspective, feel free to send him my way.
 
#19 ·
I am a pastor in Missouri. My church has a security team and I carry as well. My suggestion is to talk to him like he is a human being with common sense and reason. More than likely he will favor having a security team. He may not know that it is legal for people to carry in church with his permission (in Missouri).

As far as insurance liability, it is not true that your church will only be free of liability if you take no security measures. You should get rid of your fire extinguishers if you believe that. If something happens, your insurance will have to kick in one way or the other.

The big thing to me is that members do not see guns. A lot of people are scared of guns. I would say is that if someone carried without permission, I would only be upset if they brandished their weapon and caused alarm. Otherwise, out of sight, out of mind.

If he tells you that you may not carry, explain to him your unwillingness to worship in a church where you are not protected. Don't just leave without giving him the opportunity to reconsider his position. You may end up saving lives.
 
#28 ·
I've started to put together a small presentation of what you all have done as far as a "safety/safety team." The more I thought about it, the more I realize we haven't even thought about those types of situations. I called my dad who goes to the same church and asked him where he would go in case of a tornado. He wasn't sure even though he has been going there for 15 years.

I don't necessarily think the pastor is anti gun. He just may be afraid of what others would say if they found out someone was carrying (its a very touchy huggy group).

Sorry Keltyke, I didn't write that correctly. You have to have the pastor's permission before carrying into church. The nice thing about Missouri is that none of the "gun-free areas" aka kill zones carry any weight except for federal property. All they can do is ask you to leave and if you refuse, you get the trespassing ticket.

Again, thanks everyone for the ideas. What started with just figuring out how to ask him about carrying has turned into a way we can fulfill a need that has become pretty obvious.
 
#29 ·
I initially opted not to tell my pastor, since I live in a state where it's not required for me to do so. It really had nothing to do with my trust in him nor any fear of his reaction, though.

A former member who had carried kind of wanted everyone to know it... he carried a large auto and mag pouches under only the most minimal of concealment garments, essentially taking the William Kostric pro-gun stance while walking around church. This made people uncomfortable and it was generally felt that he was pushing the gun issue in an inappropriate venue. When I began carrying, I felt the best way not to make an issue of it was, literally, not to make an issue of it... which meant I didn't feel any need to have a special conversation with my pastor about it.

I changed my mind when I became aware that he might have found out I carried through someone else (which is a different story). I wanted to at least have him hear it from me and give him the opportunity to say anything he wanted to say without having to "confront" me. I just told him I typically went armed, and my basic reasoning behind it. I didn't feel like I needed to quote statistics or anything, or play the "I'm protecting the church" angle. He thanked me for my discretion so as not to distract others in the congregation, supported my motivation to protect my family, and we went on to have a nice lunch and talk about other things.

Obviously, it depends on your pastor's mindset... but talking with him shouldn't have to be any big deal, and you shouldn't really have to justify yourself beyond simple terms. Of course, who you are and what your attitude is makes a difference, too.

Stay safe and good luck
fme
 
#30 ·
I'm a Pastor, and I carry. If I knew you, and you were a part of the congregation, I would have no problem if you carry in Church. I don't even care if you inform me or not. The only concern I have is not everyone in the congregation understands. I don't want to lose members because someone insists on flaunting their 2A rights. Keep it concealed. People who fail to grasp this concept usually have an agenda they are promoting that goes beyond self-protection and
2A, and typically are not there for the long haul anyway.
 
#31 ·
It's not against the law to carry without permission. You could just make it a non-issue all together...

"Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. "

Unless you are made and asked to leave and then you REFUSE to leave, you are fine. I didn't understand it that way until recently.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Missouri 571.107.1
(14) Any church or other place of religious worship without the consent of the minister or person or persons representing the religious organization that exercises control over the place of religious worship. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

if the gun is left in the car, its not a crminal offense... so i am reading here is if you are made then because you took it out of the vehicle it is a criminal offense.

so what am i missing here... just want to make sure ......
 
#32 ·
If there is a law in your state that says you cannot carry without the church leadership's permission, you need to secure permission (Rom 13:1,2). It's a good idea anyway since the pastor may want to know what would happen in that situation. You may want to work out a contingency plan.

I am an elder in my church and after the Maryville shooting recently (I'm from Missouri too), I went to the board and suggested one or more persons be allowed to carry. The pastor thought it was a good idea. We only ask that whoever carries be a member in good standing, get permission on an individual basis, and for people that we don't know their skills, we ask to go shooting with them. We really don't want a total beginner carrying in our church. It works mostly because we are a small church.

Are their people who carry anyway? Quite possibly, but if they do so knowing state law requires them to get permission, they are also breaking God's law (Rom 13:1,2), and that's a much bigger deal.
 
#33 ·
I'm glad I read this thread. I live in Kansas and our laws recently changed concerning carrying in churches. i.e., that if the church doesn't want people carrying, they have to post a certain sign that can be obtained from the AG's website. Otherwise, we're legal to carry in that "non-posted" church building.

However, I was thinking of letting my pastor know that I was carrying, just in case something were to happen. This thread has given me some good ideas.
 
#35 ·
My church has been informed I carry when I suggested that I form a safety/security team. One of the staff now has that, and I've signed up, but I don't know how they will take it and they have so far not asked me to present to them my proposals. Since they are talking more along the lines of parking lot security, we'll see. I'll be armed regardless of an organized team or not.
 
#36 ·
As a former pastor and past decon of the church I currently attend. A pastor's/Elder's/member of leadership's lack of desire/fear of someone carrying a gun in church may come from a number of reasons.
1) What if congregation member X finds out and is offended/scared/whatever?
2) Why does s/he want to carry (Church or anywhere)
3) Fear of Guns "Guns kill people don't they?" That's what the Brady people say.
4) Military folks (Vets of War) while they see guns as tools; they see them as tools carried with the intent to kill them all and let God sort them out --- (this is a parapharse of a statement made by a vet who is gun shy shall we say.)
5) Simply feel they can't trust the person(s) in question.
6) The leader is Anti-gun or the leadership above them is Anti-gun.

The only one that would come to mind for me is #1 cause that person is usually the one who gives large amounts or who every body thinks does (found the latter to be true on a couple of occations)

My pastor and I talk guns. He has asked to see both of my carry guns and I have shown him ---- almost got caught; the other guy who almost caught us is a pro gun guy so he would have just want to play too. After the Marysville attack my pastor asked if I would watch his back and I said yes, when I am here. The Marysville shooting made me think about how we as baptists (different part of the clan from that church) handle people come to the front at odd times --- most think nothing of it but now I get a bit aware of movement off my six when in church or if Ushering my 12 o'clock.

I have also said we need to think about a response team for emergancies that might occur --- we a elder congregation and have had to have some one ill removed by ambu from a service. We have a number of past heart attack servivors and like me some who are heart attackes in the making --- do we have people who could respond and how do they know there is a need to do so?

By this point I am off thread so . . .
 
#37 ·
I just removed 32 posts from this thread that were off topic (many inflammatory) from the OP's question. The posts ranged from "leave the church", "carry anyway", "which law is more important?" and other, more volatile comments. If you don't see your previous post, it was Off Topic.

Keep posts on topic.
 
#39 ·
Hi Cajun,
Thanks for the link. My best buddy/friend teaches CCW and he and another highly qualified instructor are starting to contact ministers here, and present them with some information and courses on church security.

I forwarded that link to him and think he will get some good information there. Thanks, again.

Regards,
Jerry
 
#40 ·
You might want to ask your priest if any one has ever brought the subject up. Kind of get a feel for where he stands of the subject.

It's only going to take about two seconds to know his position.

If he says no, than you are right whsre you started.
 
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