Yes, I carry at work -without permission. - Page 2

Yes, I carry at work -without permission.

This is a discussion on Yes, I carry at work -without permission. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I do have to say that hearing stories like this make me extremely thankful that my workplace not only does not mind OC/CC but encourages ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array theotherlis's Avatar
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    I do have to say that hearing stories like this make me extremely thankful that my workplace not only does not mind OC/CC but encourages it. (If one of our employees expresses a sincere desire to obtain CC permit we'll arrange the class)

    I do think there's a big, big difference between 1) a company legally stating no-firearms and having it then be of legal consequence 2) company policy against firearms that is not legally binding 3) no policy but knowing the company would find a different, valid reason for termination due to their general opinion on firearms.


  2. #17
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    Good luck. I think that you are putting yourself at risk by carrying if it will cost you your job. Only you know if the risk is worth the potential down side.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czampion View Post
    It makes me angry to hear folks here at the forums advising other law-abiding, card-carrying, like-minded, decent people to honor the wishes of their employer at all personal cost.
    To each his own, I feel. Others shouldn't be insulted, offended, angry or care in the least, beyond the discussions we have as to the comparative pros/cons of a chosen path. Be as angry as you want. Just don't ram it down the throats of others. The same should be said about the flipside of the coin.

    I believe it comes down to honor and integrity, and what you believe is the point of honor where your integrity hangs its hat. We each decide that for our own selves.

    Some equate following the rules requested by an "authority" or employer as the rules by which one must behave, else one is being dishonorable to the intent of the exercise.

    Some identify only one exercise ... the exercise, which is to be armed at all costs, even if it goes against rules, regulations or laws.

    Some choose a middle road.

    In the end, a person is free. A person has the ability to have the final say in one's own security. One can find a set of circumstances in life that matches best with one's own choices. Where those choices conflict with the desires of others, others get to have a say in the equation.

    My $0.03.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #19
    Member Array LM2024's Avatar
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    No one's forcing you to work there. If that's the policy of your employer, then you have the freedom to get another employer. Rules are rules, if you can't abide by them, you can find another employer, or end up getting fired for violating those rules. Looking at a previous post of yours, you say you are a security guard:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ml#post1141201

    I am a secuirty guard but I am not permitted to carry a firearm as I work on a university campus and they have a full armed police force at their disposal.
    So does that mean you're carrying an unauthorized weapon on a school campus? Why don't you try to work for the campus police?

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    "Champion", I understand and sympathize with your rant. However...do you not have control over what occurs on your own property? So does the business owner. Your right to carry stops at his property line. If I were in that situation, I'd seek employment elsewhere. I do not patronize stores that don't allow guns. That being said - and I NEVER advocate anyone violate the law - The more and more the mess happens in more and more different places, the less and less I'm concerned with the pure legalities of carrying.

  6. #21
    Member Array cz2075bd's Avatar
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    This is a very personal decision and nobody but oneself knows the decision calculus involved. In this economy the stakes are particularly high but if you're not breaking any federal, state or local laws then it's your call.

    In my office, I was the ONLY person there for a while, it was a new branch. Then 2 other people transferred over, then another returned from graduate school. So we have 4 of us, and sometimes a managing partner drops in for a half day. I carry daily, deep concealed (smartcarry or ankle), nobody knows. In the beginning, there was no official policy and I was essentially setting up the local policies for the office anyway.

    Now about a year ago our branch and its sister branch in California did a legal split from the parent company in order to keep the profits and costs separate (the parent company entered into a revenue sharing agreement with a new stakeholder and they wanted to shield this unrelated revenue from the agreement).

    So to legally disentangle the two companies, we split everything. New health insurance, new payroll firm, new 401k, new IT licenses, and, for the first time ever, an employee handbook. Just for the sake of having one, since the parent company didn't. It would further establish the identity a separate company, in the event that the parent company's partner ever sued for some of our revenue.

    So the partner in charge of doing the handbook goes to a cookie-cutter company where you fill in a web form and out comes a 100 page employee handbook ready to take to kinko's. You put in stuff like how many days of vacation, sick days, etc. Nobody has read the handbook (including the partner who "wrote" it), and our company everyday practices often contradict the handbook. We have it, as I said, for the sake of adding one more piece of evidence to the fact that we are totally separate from the parent company. The handbook happens to say that guns and other weapons are forbidden on company property, and violation is gounds for dismissal. This didn't used to be the policy. Not sure if anybody else knows this is the policy in the handbook but me. Anyway, I am not willing to give up carrying to satisfy this token policy that was hatched quite accidentally. The owners, being left-wingers, are probably anti-gun (I have not and will not bring up the topic, they know I am generally a right winger, I don't want to give them reason to suspect I'm some sort of fringe lunatic). What they don't know won't hurt them.

  7. #22
    Member Array LM2024's Avatar
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    Like I said, you are an unarmed security guard at a university that has it's own armed campus police. It's a good bet that you're violating the law by having an unauthorized firearm on campus.

  8. #23
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    I agree with the popular comments here. It is up to the employer and if the employee doesnt allow it, work somewhere else. The owner has the right to ban you from carrying and it should be respected. But.....You did not sign a paper saying you wouldn't carry and it is not posted. You're only going by knowledge of the owner being anti-gun. It's not really breaking the rules, it's only taking a risk of loosing your job. If you're willing to take the risk, so be it.
    If you're going to carry anyway, I think you're pushing your luck by carrying a full size gun.
    Prepare for the worst and hope it never happens

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    This seems like the age old debate. Where do your rights start, and where do others stop?
    This always seems to have a fuzzy line between the two.

    For me it boils down to risk assessment.
    I can carry every gun I own, and still get shot in the back of the head. I know this can happen, but I'm not going to loose any sleep over it.

    As it is your right to protect yourself. It is also your right to be unemployed.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array MilitaryPower's Avatar
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    In my previous job I carried concealed (Yay for Smartcarry!). They had a policy against it. Too bad, my life is worth more. Now my current profession requires me to wear a gun, but it also puts me in a position where I am more likely to use it.
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".

  11. #26
    Member Array tdd78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czampion View Post
    I carry a full-sized concealed pistol day-in and day-out at my place of employment. If it was discovered that I carry at work I would be reprimanded (if not immediately fired) and later fired for unrealted reasons based on this institution's hatred of guns and those who carry them. Still, I carry.

    Who was it that decided I must place my personal security in the hands of my employer nine-hours-per-day when my employer's standards fall far short of my own? Is it not enough that I do my job and do it well? Is it not enough that I am professional and enhance the environment in which I work with a strong work ethic and engaging manner? It's no crime federally or locally for me to carry at work. I could not be criminally trespassed for carrying at work because I have every reason to be there; they depend on me!

    I am insulted that I am expected to leave an essential part of my life at home so as not to scare my fellow employees. It is those employees who may one day remain alive because someone like me was there to put up a real defense when the SHTF. Many people on this very site have expressed their feelings that it is dishonest for me to carry at work when my employer doesn't wish me to be armed. I never signed a form that flatly stated "I will not carry a gun at work." I never told my employer I wouldn't carry. I just DO carry. I've never drawn, fired or even told anyone at work that I carry a firearm. Accidental physical contact may one day reveal that something's hiding out under the shirt but no one will ever know for sure aside from an actual violent encounter in the workplace at which point I will not hesitate to stop an attacker.

    It makes me angry to hear folks here at the forums advising other law-abiding, card-carrying, like-minded, decent people to honor the wishes of their employer at all personal cost. That is not a community that supports the freedoms of its members. We must be wise in our choices but we must also learn to take responsibility for the life God has given us and not be cowed into total submission to the pseudo-authority of those who use our strength, time and services for financial gain. I like my boss but I'm glad he doesn't have the final say in my personal safety.
    If it's not illegal to do so in your area and you are comfortable at the risk of being unemployed then go for it. Only you know how well you can survive without a paycheck.
    For me to do what you are doing it would be illegal because the company I work for has signage posted that prohibits carrying and if caught the state of Kansas will charge me with a crime.
    Also, I agree with what many others have already posted. If you don't agree with company policy then get another job. You don't have the right to project your beliefs upon others nor should you just ignore the rules you don't like.

  12. #27
    Member Array chiefrcd's Avatar
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    I applaud your conviction, but everyone has a different set of personal rules to follow. Would you for example carry your concealed weapon into a Federal Courthouse? I fully support your right to make the decision on where you carry, but I would not chastise another for not choosing the same path.
    Have Gun ~ Will Carry
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  13. #28
    Member Array Czampion's Avatar
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    Good, solid replies. Thanks you folks. There is no illegality involved here, just an atmosphere of 2A intolerance, truly. In Alaska it is not a violation of law for me to carry at my place of employment. It is acknowledged that our visitors have the right to do so. Someone here stated that just as I have a right to refuse an individual carrying a weapon entrance to my home, so can my employer. In this case, my employer is an educational institution. Much federal and state, research (and tuition) monies are what keep the institution afloat. I am not violating anyone's individual "Castle Doctrine" by carrying here.

    You're right, there's risk. I may lose my job one day. That's a risk I am, unfortunately, having to take. I am trampling no one's personal "rights" here. I am actually excercising my liberties under the law and no one's the wiser yet.

    Where do we as CCW's draw the line? I believe there needs to be integrity in everything we do also. However, we have lost much ground over the years in our ability to remain armed in our workplaces. It would be more difficult to find an employer today that has an "it's your business" policy on guns than 50 years ago. We are not excercising our right to bear arms in our collective workplaces and it seems the "privilege?" is leeching away from us through legal complications. Until the law in Alaska forbids me to carry at my place of employment, I will carry.

  14. #29
    Member Array tdd78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czampion View Post
    Good, solid replies. Thanks you folks. There is no illegality involved here, just an atmosphere of 2A intolerance, truly. In Alaska it is not a violation of law for me to carry at my place of employment. It is acknowledged that our visitors have the right to do so. Someone here stated that just as I have a right to refuse an individual carrying a weapon entrance to my home, so can my employer. In this case, my employer is an educational institution. Much federal and state, research (and tuition) monies are what keep the institution afloat. I am not violating anyone's individual "Castle Doctrine" by carrying here.

    You're right, there's risk. I may lose my job one day. That's a risk I am, unfortunately, having to take. I am trampling no one's personal "rights" here. I am actually excercising my liberties under the law and no one's the wiser yet.

    Where do we as CCW's draw the line? I believe there needs to be integrity in everything we do also. However, we have lost much ground over the years in our ability to remain armed in our workplaces. It would be more difficult to find an employer today that has an "it's your business" policy on guns than 50 years ago. We are not excercising our right to bear arms in our collective workplaces and it seems the "privilege?" is leeching away from us through legal complications. Until the law in Alaska forbids me to carry at my place of employment, I will carry.
    I agree with a number of your points. However, some of us are not in a postion to challenge our employers rules because of legal concerns and or finacial reasons.
    You also have to take into account that many of these companies are not passing/enforcing the no gun policies because they are anti gun. Many are doing it to cover thier collective butts. It's all about the money and if something happens in thier busniess and someone gets hurt because of a firearm they can say 'Look we have a no firearms Policy so we are not liable for what happened'

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHenry View Post
    If you are following all applicable state and federal laws, including any company policies (in Texas, written or unwritten company policies can prohibit the carrying of guns by employees
    only if these written policies state the language of the 30.06 signs, there is nothing in the Texas code for what the oral communication must be, no case law on this either
    I say this only as an example for folks in this position.....know what your state law says about places you can't carry, what notices/notifications are necessary, and what constitutes you being given the notification

    to the OP.....I fully understand your point of view.....but this is a forum that supports the freedom of its members....the freedom to choose to carry against the employer's policies and put their job in jeopardy as well as their family's well-being.....everyone must decide the perfect balance for them
    If you feel ok with it....then more power to you and we will support you, but if someone else says "there are no jobs here so I must keep mine" then we will support them in their decision not to carry at work

    If someone is discovered carrying in a place either prohibited by law or by an employee policy it does nothing but hurt our cause.
    We all need to remember.....this fight we are in for the safety of the 2nd Amendment and CCW isn't a war of ideology (we can't argue ideology with the antis we have to keep convincing the voting public).....its a war of propaganda. That is the weapon used by the antis.....propaganda in the media, and when we screw up its more ammo in their propaganda weapons.
    LEO/CHL
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    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
    --G.W. McClintock

    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

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