Question about SC/NC concealment

This is a discussion on Question about SC/NC concealment within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm of the opinion we're dealing with a "gray area" of the law here. I'm not completely convinced by a literal reading of the statute, ...

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Thread: Question about SC/NC concealment

  1. #16
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion we're dealing with a "gray area" of the law here.

    I'm not completely convinced by a literal reading of the statute, since I know that it's not uncommon for LEO's, DA's and Judges to interpret the law differently than the way the law reads literally.

    Glad I read this thread though. It has convinced me to give my old CCW instructor a call.

    Thanks to everybody for their time and info.
    "I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defensive Arms View Post
    As long as he leaves it concealed in the car before entering the stadium, I don't see a problem.
    Actually this may be the bigger issue, at least in NC.

    14‑269.2. Weapons on campus or other educational property.
    (a) The following definitions apply to this section:
    (1) Educational property. Any school building or bus, school campus, grounds, recreational area, athletic field, or other property owned, used, or operated by any board of education or school board of trustees, or directors for the administration of any school.
    (1a) Employee. A person employed by a local board of education or school whether the person is an adult or a minor.
    (1b) School. A public or private school, community college, college, or university.
    (2) Student. A person enrolled in a school or a person who has been suspended or expelled within the last five years from a school, whether the person is an adult or a minor.
    (3) Switchblade knife. A knife containing a blade that opens automatically by the release of a spring or a similar contrivance.
    (4) Weapon. Any device enumerated in subsection (b), (b1), or (d) of this section.

    GS_14-269.2

    For myself, as a passenger, I would not blurt out I have a CCW. I may get my wallet in my hand and be ready to disclose if they address me. IANAL, but keep in mind per SCOTUS (Brendlin v California) the passenger is seized in a traffic stop. So it seems to be an official interaction from the get go.

    To address the presenting the card and ID. I tend to have it ready and holding it at the top of my steering wheel before I pull over. If I already have my ID out, I don't need to ask to reach for it.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defensive Arms View Post
    Thanks, Bunny.

    However, the OP indicated that he was a PASSENGER in the stopped car, not the driver.

    So his legitimate question is essentially this:

    If he's a passenger carrying concealed in a car, and a police officer approaches and addresses ONLY the driver of the car---is he as a passenger also required to inform the officer he's carrying, even though the officer didn't approach or address him specifically?

    I don't claim to have a definite answer, but my bet would be that he's still required to inform. It would also be the wise thing to do IMO, even if it wasn't mandatory.
    Yeah, I know. I mean, I DON'T know, it's a good question. But that's all I could find in my notes.

    I'd ASSUME that you should notify because you're in a vehicle being approached in an official capacity. But you know what they say about when you assume.

    Maybe someone should post this question in the LE/Homeland Security section here?
    Don't frisk me, I am the weapon.


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  5. #19
    Member Array NCRonB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWatson35 View Post
    Question came up while travelling up to Raleigh for SC vs NCSU game.
    I am a passenger in the car. My weapon is on my person. Driver is pulled for speeding. Am I obligated to inform? My understanding is "no". I only need inform if asked for my ID. Friend on mine who carries disagrees.
    It is false that you only have to notify if asked for your ID, but the statute (as posted above) does not specifically answer your question. You must inform the LEO if "approached" or "addressed" by the officer. That is unfortunately ambiguous. What if I'm in line at the grocery store and an LEO "approaches" me and gets in line or passes through the line? What if the LEO nods at me or says "Hi, how are you doing?" Did he "address" me? A literal reading of the statute requires me to notify them that I'm carrying, but fair-minded people would agree that's absurd. For that reason, we often insert our own interpretation and say if it's in their "official duty"... but that's not what the statute says.

    In your case, I think it would be wise to notify the officer. You will not be accused of breaking that law if you notify them when you didn't really need to, but I've read stories where they really don't like it if they find out two minutes later and you didn't tell them first thing.

    A bigger issue in your case, however, is the above posted statute regarding firearms on school property. It's a felony in NC to carry a loaded gun on school property, which includes university-level school property. NCSU stadium property applies. It's "only" a misdemeanor if it's unloaded and locked in a container in your car. There is no way for the average citizen to legally carry a gun on to school property. Sec. 30 of the NC Constitution apparently doesn't apply to school property nor to a number of other places where the legislature has arbitrarily chosen to ignore it.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRonB View Post
    It is false that you only have to notify if asked for your ID, but the statute (as posted above) does not specifically answer your question. You must inform the LEO if "approached" or "addressed" by the officer. That is unfortunately ambiguous. What if I'm in line at the grocery store and an LEO "approaches" me and gets in line or passes through the line? What if the LEO nods at me or says "Hi, how are you doing?" Did he "address" me? A literal reading of the statute requires me to notify them that I'm carrying, but fair-minded people would agree that's absurd. For that reason, we often insert our own interpretation and say if it's in their "official duty"... but that's not what the statute says.

    In your case, I think it would be wise to notify the officer. You will not be accused of breaking that law if you notify them when you didn't really need to, but I've read stories where they really don't like it if they find out two minutes later and you didn't tell them first thing.

    A bigger issue in your case, however, is the above posted statute regarding firearms on school property. It's a felony in NC to carry a loaded gun on school property, which includes university-level school property. NCSU stadium property applies. It's "only" a misdemeanor if it's unloaded and locked in a container in your car. There is no way for the average citizen to legally carry a gun on to school property. Sec. 30 of the NC Constitution apparently doesn't apply to school property nor to a number of other places where the legislature has arbitrarily chosen to ignore it.
    I only posted a link to the NC state firearms statute and a few sections that seemed relevant. I deal with legal issues not related to firearms almost everyday in a totally different but similarly regulated business. Each state has their own laws and they interpret them differently. They can change from inquiry to inquiry depending on who you speak to.

    I hope you are not tested on the law of NC. It seems ambiguous and full of holes that I would prefer not to have to deal with if I were a resident of NC.
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  7. #21
    Member Array MWatson35's Avatar
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    Thanks for all of the responses. I was aware of the staute regarding firearms on school property. We did not enter or park on school property. We parked in a private lot.

  8. #22
    Member Array MWatson35's Avatar
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    I spoke to two different LEOs today. Both said you BETTER inform.
    One did say he was not 100% how the staute read. His comment was "I would consider you a "good" guy if you took the time to inform. In the future. I will inform. Would you advise the driver and let them announce to LEO "My passenger has a CWP and is armed". "How should we proceed' or would you interupt and make the advisement yourself?

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array Bunny's Avatar
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    Here's the official response I got from a friend who is an NC LEO/SWAT.

    "Yes as a passenger you still have to tell the [LEO] that you have a gun. Anytime you are approached by a uniformed officer you are supposed to tell them. Just wait until they ask for the drivers license and stuff and then tell them you have a piece."

    Hope that helps?
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  10. #24
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Thanks, Bunny.

    I was pretty sure a passenger also has to inform.
    "I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

    ~ Massad Ayoob

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    Here's the official response I got from a friend who is an NC LEO/SWAT.

    "Yes as a passenger you still have to tell the [LEO] that you have a gun. Anytime you are approached by a uniformed officer you are supposed to tell them. Just wait until they ask for the drivers license and stuff and then tell them you have a piece."

    Hope that helps?
    Thanks Bunny,

    I think the state law I posted was fairly clear in its meaning. Even as a Passenger, I think a LEO would want to be informed of any weapons in the vehicle. It only seems right to me to inform unless you have something to hide.
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  12. #26
    Member Array NCRonB's Avatar
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    "Yes as a passenger you still have to tell the [LEO] that you have a gun. Anytime you are approached by a uniformed officer you are supposed to tell them. Just wait until they ask for the drivers license and stuff and then tell them you have a piece."
    What if the passenger is in the far back seat of a three-row minivan full of passengers? Or, what if the passenger is asleep? The LEO isn't approaching the passenger; he's approaching the driver, and he may not address the passenger at all.

    I'm not saying the above is not good advice; I would likely follow it myself. I'm just saying the law isn't fairly clear; otherwise we wouldn't have to think about what an LEO wants nor would we have to do what seems right. In fact, if it were that clear, this thread may never have been started. We should be able to know what the law expects of us. Really, how hard would it have been to write the law to be more specific? I guess that's asking too much of the NC legislature.

    Even something like "... when addressed by an officer acting in the discharge of their official duties..." would be better. Leave off the ambiguous "approached" and clarify that it must be an official contact. Voila! Much better.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRonB View Post
    What if the passenger is in the far back seat of a three-row minivan full of passengers? Or, what if the passenger is asleep? The LEO isn't approaching the passenger; he's approaching the driver, and he may not address the passenger at all.

    I'm not saying the above is not good advice; I would likely follow it myself. I'm just saying the law isn't fairly clear; otherwise we wouldn't have to think about what an LEO wants nor would we have to do what seems right. In fact, if it were that clear, this thread may never have been started. We should be able to know what the law expects of us. Really, how hard would it have been to write the law to be more specific? I guess that's asking too much of the NC legislature.

    Even something like "... when addressed by an officer acting in the discharge of their official duties..." would be better. Leave off the ambiguous "approached" and clarify that it must be an official contact. Voila! Much better.
    Ron,

    Your point is well taken. State laws are sometimes seemingly written to be sometimes purposely ambiguous.

    The NC law though as I read It seems to be fairly clear in its meaning.
    Where problems often occur is with uninformed Leo's and even judges. Many take concealed carry weapons classes just to be better informed.
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  14. #28
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    I am very new but my CCW instructor is a Police Officer (Virginia). He told me when I am in my own vehicle and they run it the CCW shows up and if I am stopped to just put both hands on the steering wheel, whether I have my weapon or not, until he gets there. Then tell him whether I do or do not have my weapon. Do not move to get registration or anything until he asks. He said that makes it a whole lot more comfortable for the officer too. I thought it good advice. I did not think to ask him what if I were a passenger, I wish I had.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandykb View Post
    I am very new but my CCW instructor is a Police Officer (Virginia). He told me when I am in my own vehicle and they run it the CCW shows up and if I am stopped to just put both hands on the steering wheel, whether I have my weapon or not, until he gets there. Then tell him whether I do or do not have my weapon. Do not move to get registration or anything until he asks. He said that makes it a whole lot more comfortable for the officer too. I thought it good advice. I did not think to ask him what if I were a passenger, I wish I had.
    You got some good advice. Once the LEO knows you are not a BG, you will usually be treated fairly.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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  16. #30
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    Uhhh...if you are a resident of SC, how can you legally carry CCW? I am not aware of NC having reciprocity with SC.... Unless you are thinking Federal "Safe Journey".

    Just curious because we will be in Asheville in a couple of weeks.
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