CCW at Church ... that has a school - Page 2

CCW at Church ... that has a school

This is a discussion on CCW at Church ... that has a school within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would just call the AG and ask for clarification....

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Thread: CCW at Church ... that has a school

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    I would just call the AG and ask for clarification.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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  2. #17
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    Yes

  3. #18
    Member Array alnitak's Avatar
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    I appreciate all the sage advice about contacting the AG, and I agree with getting the correct answer straight from the horse's mouth, but really, given the clause of "good and sufficient" I won't get halfway through my question before they tell me that I can't carry in church anyway, so it's a moot question.

    I believe I have sufficient reason, but I want to make sure it is legal from the school grounds aspect. However, I doubt the AG will only restrict their opinion to that aspect.

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    The "reason" for the church part is undefined, and I agree with you about there being plenty enough reason to take such action.

    The school part, though, seems definitive. I don't see any way around that. If you discover anything solid on one being able to carry in a church portion of a church-private school combination property, PLEASE post it here. I'm afraid I already have enough support saying one cannot:

    18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence.

    The exemptions set out in 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.
    Intriguingly, I see the phrase, "The provisions of this section shall not apply to... (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises;" - this suggests that if your church/school leadership appoints you to their Security team, you may be in the clear at least for the hours that they suppose a security team would be active. I would chat with a lawyer about this if you're interested: my post here is certainly not legal advice!
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  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    The fact that there is a school affiliated with the church is a moot point. VA law prohibits carrying at a place of worship.
    Class 4 Misdemeanor ♦ Carrying a firearm into a place of worship without good cause ( 18.2-283).
    Quote Originally Posted by buckley;
    Good cause doesn't mean "sufficient reason".Good cause is a legally sufficient reason, which may not be the same as a sufficient reason. ...while I would argue that wanting to protect yourself qualifies as good cause, based on the language of the statute, it looks like that isn't enough.
    Actually, the law reads:

    18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
    Buckley may be right in warning us that the decision may rest with others who see things differently, but his argument should not turn on the use of the word "cause" in the first quote, which was probably taken from some other reference incorrectly citing the actual law.

    (Note - I also recommend verifying well-intentioned Bibilical quotes, too: the classic example is "Do no murder" being mistranslated and misquoted as "Do not kill".)
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  6. #21
    Member Array alnitak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    The school part, though, seems definitive. I don't see any way around that.
    Yeah, that was my read as well.

    I might be willing to risk a misdemeanor, but certainly not a felony. I'll just leave the CCW at home.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alnitak View Post
    I'm sure I know the answer to this, so consider this more a frustrated post than really a question.

    After speaking with the wife and having her agree that she wouldn't mind me carrying concealed to church (as long as it wasn't exposed...duh!), it occurred to me that I just "won" a moot discussion since my church also has an elementary school attached, within the 1000 feet covered by law. Darn it! Even though it's a Sunday, and no school activities are going on, I can't carry -- correct?
    You're going to have to find out what VA law says. It will vary from state to state.

    In FL, which I know doesn't help you at all, we are a church who has a school. Best interpretation of state law seems to be that you can carry when school is not in session, and so, worship services are okay. But, there is no case law, and no test subjects lined up and willing to set precedent.

    Not much help, but it's tough when the laws are poorly-written and unclear.
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  8. #23
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    Paymeister has covered it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    The school part, though, seems definitive. I don't see any way around that.
    However, how is/are the deed/deeds for the property recorded?

    If the "place of religious worship" and the school are on the same lot/parcel then the "school grounds" include the "place of religious worship" and no carry is allowed.

    OTOH, churches and schools are often on multiple plots and the school may be distinct from the "place of religious worship."
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  9. #24
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    Exclamation Concealed Carry: Schools/Churches

    I wasn't going to comment any further but you REALLY NEED to contact your AG. I've spoken with them in NM, FL and PA and ALL have been responsive. I especially like it when they reply via e-mail and I have a copy of the reply to carry on me. Do your "due-diligence" or have a lawyer do it for you. Even a charge involving firearms at a level less than a felony will cause your permit to get pulled. YOUR feelings about whether you have just cause are NOT the ones that count. Please at least show you ATTEMPTED to contact the AG's office... Good Luck...
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  10. #25
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    The AG in VA was less than helpful in my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by msgmes View Post
    I ALWAYS contact the state's Attorney General. If you have questions about the Law, contact your State AG or contact a lawyer that specializes in firearms law. Don't trust a fellow blogger... He won't be in Court with you... And remember, the AG covers CRIMINAL LAW... someone can always sue you in CIVIL court...
    Contacting the AG sounds good. But i n VA I know the answer you'll get.

    I kinda went this route one time and it took months and months to get a useful answer.

    I first tried getting an opinion from the Virginia Attorney General's office on whether the VA National Guard run "Commonwealth Challenge" program, and its activities, would be considered a school when considering concealed carry. The reply from the AG's office was (paraphrasing here) that I am just a citizen and the AG is the lawyer for the governor and the state. They don't give out opinions to citizens. Yes, I do pay taxes that pay the AG's salary...

    So I went to my state delegate and he was very helpful and supportive. He requested an opinion from the AG and he got a different answer - about 5 months later, and months too late for me.

    This was posted in my entry at http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-no-carry.html

    I don't know if AGs in other states are more responsive to private citizens, but my experience in VA turned me right off to the office.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by alnitak View Post
    And there are plenty of "good and sufficient reasons" in the paper regularly. I am comfortable with that condition.
    I completely agree with you. The things we've seen happening in churches across the country in the past ten years is proof of the need. The school thing however is very different. I didn't even get a definitive answer on this exact situation in my CPL class here in Hampton Roads.
    Protection is a responsibility not just a right.

  12. #27
    New Member Array msgmes's Avatar
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    Check this out

    Quote Originally Posted by Red82 View Post
    I completely agree with you. The things we've seen happening in churches across the country in the past ten years is proof of the need. The school thing however is very different. I didn't even get a definitive answer on this exact situation in my CPL class here in Hampton Roads.
    Look at Favorite Quotes... You'll want to quote what you see...

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgmes View Post
    Look at Favorite Quotes... You'll want to quote what you see...
    IMHO, here in Virginia carry at/on any K-12 property is prohibited at all times -- save the provision for carry in a car w/o getting out.

    Church, private, or public makes no difference.

    See:

    18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence.

    The exemptions set out in 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.

    As used in this section:

    "Stun weapon" means any device that emits a momentary or pulsed output, which is electrical, audible, optical or electromagnetic in nature and which is designed to temporarily incapacitate a person.

    (1979, c. 467; 1988, c. 493; 1990, cc. 635, 744; 1991, c. 579; 1992, cc. 727, 735; 1995, c. 511; 1999, cc. 587, 829, 846; 2001, c. 403; 2003, cc. 619, 976; 2004, cc. 128, 461; 2005, cc. 830, 928; 2007, c. 519.) [emphases added]
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  14. #29
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    Hey Man we have a great number of people that conceal carry in church. Of our congragation of about 100 we have about 12 guys and 2 ladies who carry on a regular basis. Good and sufficient reason let see protecting every one that is present in that building. That sounds like a sufficient reason to me. As far as the school on the grounds goes I am not sure. It is a private instutions so I would ask some of the people in the church like a elder or your pastor and see what they think. I would also like some one commented on before contact the state AG and see what they say.

  15. #30
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    In Louisiana that is a no no
    Gun control is two hands on a 500 Smith/Wesson

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