CCW at Church ... that has a school

[alnitak]

I'm sure I know the answer to this, so consider this more a frustrated post than really a question.

After speaking with the wife and having her agree that she wouldn't mind me carrying concealed to church (as long as it wasn't exposed...duh!), it occurred to me that I just "won" a moot discussion since my church also has an elementary school attached, within the 1000 feet covered by law. Darn it! Even though it's a Sunday, and no school activities are going on, I can't carry -- correct?

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[MountainPacker]

Virginia has no 1000 foot rule. There is a federal 1000 foot rule, but that excludes those authorized by the state to carry a firearm (you).

Virginia does say you can't carry in a church without "good and sufficient reason." There is no definition for good and sufficient.

Carrying without good and sufficient reason is a minor crime punishable by a $100 fine.

[archer51]

The fact that there is a school affiliated with the church is a moot point. VA law prohibits carrying at a place of worship.

Class 4 Misdemeanor ♦ Carrying a firearm into a place of worship without good cause (§ 18.2-283).

[Red82]

The fact that there is a school affiliated with the church is a moot point. VA law prohibits carrying at a place of worship.

so it doesn't prohibit carry in church, you just have to have good and sufficient reason.

[alnitak]

Virginia has no 1000 foot rule. There is a federal 1000 foot rule, but that excludes those authorized by the state to carry a firearm (you).

I thought VA allowed CC only in a car on school grounds, with a permit. If I leave the car, I have to leave the gun unloaded and locked up in the car. If I can't walk around the school grounds (e.g., ball field) with a concealed gun, how can I walk across a shared parking lot and into a building that's within 1000' of the school?

From the NRA site for VA:

"It is unlawful to carry any firearm at any time in
any elementary, junior high, or high school, or on such
school property or discharge a firearm on school grounds
or within 1,000 feet of school property, except as part of
the curriculum or other school-sponsored program of any
organization permitted by the school. Firearms may be
possessed in a vehicle if unloaded and locked in a closed
container or vehicle trunk.

Any person with a concealed handgun permit may
carry a concealed handgun onto school property while in
a vehicle to drop off or pick up a child, only if the permit
holder remains in the vehicle with the handgun completely
concealed."

[alnitak]

so it doesn't prohibit carry in church, you just have to have good and sufficient reason.

And there are plenty of "good and sufficient reasons" in the paper regularly. I am comfortable with that condition.

[msgmes]

I'm an NJ resident with a valid FL permit. BEFORE I travel to states with reciprocity (I can't carry in my home state of NJ... DUH!) I ALWAYS contact the state's Attorney General. If you have questions about the Law, contact your State AG or contact a lawyer that specializes in firearms law. Don't trust a fellow blogger... He won't be in Court with you... And remember, the AG covers CRIMINAL LAW... someone can always sue you in CIVIL court...

[msgmes]

How does CASE LAW define "good and sufficient reasons"? THAT'S the standard... NJ says I can obtain a permit if I have sufficient reasons... Which they define as repeated, reported, documented threats personally against one's life... NOT a history of violence in a neighborhood or newspaper articles... BE CAREFUL or they'll make YOU out to be the criminal...

[gunthorp]

I only read MN, UT, and FL law. Here in MN it's OK to carry with a permit in a school or day care with written permission from the principal or day care director. This possibly might include a Sunday school director or the pastor, if church schools are lumped in with the meaning of "school." Most churches (minus 3 in MPLS-STP) proper are OK unless they post signs. There is a Sunday school in most churches I know, but MN permit law doesn't mention them at all when it addresses school prohibitions. Study the law in your state, and ask the AG to clarify any questions. You don't want to be party to the court case that tries to sort this out. I will pose this great question to our AG as well.

[Buckley]

Good cause doesn't mean "sufficient reason". Good cause is a legally sufficient reason, which may not be the same as a sufficient reason. Sadly in this situation the merits of the matter would determine whether there was good cause. If you are being stalked, you have been the target of repeat violence, or you have an injunction out against someone, those may qualify as good cause. while I would argue that wanting to protect yourself qualifies as good cause, based on the language of the statute, it looks like that isn't enough. It is already understood that self-defense is a reason to carry a firearm, and the statute here sill demands good cause. I think that statute should be reconsidered.

[PastorPack]

alright, who wants to volunteer to stalk alnitakso he can show good cause?

+1 on contacting the AG's office on this one.

Here's some food for thought on the good cause. Church Safety thread.

[cmb]

does the "private" nomenclature of a church school matter? What about the separation of church and state? the state is here declaring, like in GA and VA, you can't do something in a "church" setting? Violates it to me and I may be willing to fight that one if need be. Also what if you are the pastor, technically that is your place of work? I understand public schools, they are gov't run which explains why the president can shut it down and make a speech but the others are private and may even be title 9?

[havegunjoe]

Is this 1,000' law you refer to something Virginia has on the books because the one passed in 1990 was almost immediately challenged and overturned. I would doubt that any state has one if the federal law was struck down.

[alnitak]

I only read MN, UT, and FL law. Here in MN it's OK to carry with a permit in a school or day care with written permission from the principal or day care director. This possibly might include a Sunday school director or the pastor, if church schools are lumped in with the meaning of "school." Most churches (minus 3 in MPLS-STP) proper are OK unless they post signs. There is a Sunday school in most churches I know, but MN permit law doesn't mention them at all when it addresses school prohibitions.

Just to clarify, there is a "private" elementary school, K-6th, associated with the Parish...so it's not just Sunday School.

[alnitak]

Is this 1,000' law you refer to something Virginia has on the books because the one passed in 1990 was almost immediately challenged and overturned. I would doubt that any state has one if the federal law was struck down.

I believe the way the VA law as written, per the NRA link and a couple of statutes I have found, is based on "school property." So, if an elementary school is located on church property, does "school property" extend to all the church grounds and buildings? Is the shared parking lot (school & church) considered school property (I suspect so)?

I don't know if the 1000' rule applies, but I have seen a bunch of discussion about open carry (legal in VA), off of school property but within 1000' of school properrty. Even to one reference where a car broke down within 1000', the person left the vehicle with his gun locked inside to find a gas station, and was later brought up on charges when police found the vehicle and the gun (forget the details of how that happened).