Where Your CCW Points?
This is a discussion on Where Your CCW Points? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello,
I've wondered for some time about this.
When I lay my pistol down, no matter how I do it, I'm keenly aware of where ...
April 6th, 2006 10:03 AM
Where Your CCW Points?
I've wondered for some time about this.
When I lay my pistol down, no matter how I do it, I'm keenly aware of where it's pointing and what it will hit if it magically goes off. I'll say to myself, "Self, even pointing down this sucker has the potential to go through the water heater or furnace (both gas fired units in the "basement").
As well, when I'm carrying, I'm aware that it could crease my thigh or, if someone bends down behind me, they're in danger (tie their shoe, stock shelves at the local grocery, etc).
I don't do the horizontal shoulder holster because it covers everything behind me. A distant second is that shoulder holsters are uncomfortable.
Sooo.... Guys'n'gals, is there a point where one just overreacts to this? I'm aware that my pistol, while I'm sleeping, is pointed toward the neighbors, though the bullet has to pass through the back of the nightstand, two walls and 50 yds to reach their house.
P.S. I've not even handled a pair of Thunderwear so I'm not qualified to say anything positive or negative about it, except that, were I single, I might consider it J.S.
April 6th, 2006 10:12 AM
Yea. I think about it when its not in a holster on my hip (laying somewhere in the house in a holster). I thought it was just "safety first", OC behavior second.
"He went on two legs, wore clothes and was a human being, but nevertheless he was in reality a wolf of the Steppes. He had learned a good deal . . . and was a fairly clever fellow. What he had not learned, however, was this: to find contentment in himself and his own life. The cause of this apparently was that at the bottom of his heart he knew all the time (or thought he knew) that he was in reality not a man, but a wolf of the Steppes."
April 6th, 2006 10:12 AM
Those lil tidbits of the gun "magically" going off do not really cross my mind. maybe it does, but i don't really let it effect my behavior.
if i did let it effect my behavior to any real extent i'd probably not carry as even if it magically fired "safely" into a parking lot people could be injured by bullet splatter and flying asphalt.
so "NO" for me on the magic discharge.
This is mine. That is yours.
Lets keep it that way.
April 6th, 2006 10:17 AM
You hit on the same reason why I don't carry in a horizontal shoulder holster (and, not really comfortable, etc.) -- My 1911 is IWB and unless I'm in an odd position, it's pointed down and I am aware of it and where it's pointed if I'm leaning over or something.
The gun that's a "pain" for me is my little Kel-Tec in my pocket holster. It's pretty easy to sit down and have it pointing at someone else. I do keep that in mind all the time.
My 2 cents worth is that it's being safe with a firearm. I understand that there are situations where events would become more important than inadvertent pointing of a gun at others, but in my day to day life I don't believe you're overreacting nor am I.
April 6th, 2006 10:25 AM
Just from habit I'm aware of where it is pointing in the 'near' vicinity. I don't worry so much about neighbors and objects as much as people walking through the room. This is more because I don't like looking over from a chair and looking down the barrel of a loaded gun (regardless of whether someone is holding it or not) - so I figure most people don't either. When I lay the gun down, I ensure it is pointing in a direction that does not cross anyone in the room. I'm not worried about a magic discharge - just common courtesy.
April 6th, 2006 10:27 AM
I understand what you guys are saying and I guess I had some of those same thought trains going through my head for a short while. But when I decided to carry with one in the tube, I developed some faith in the design of the gun.
Unless you get a finger or some kind of "finger substitute" ON the trigger, no well-designed modern firearm is going to shoot.
I'd consider my Glock 23 to be for all intents and purposes, to be inert, until the trigger has been pulled. The way it's designed, it is physically impossible for it to fire until that has happened. Study the design, you'll see why I say that.
All other modern handguns have their own ways of dealing with this. I guess I'll have to limit my statement to the auto's, I'm not that familiar with wheel guns anymore.
Even so, I'll confess that when I lay the weapon down, I always point it in a "neutral" direction.
Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.
April 6th, 2006 11:44 AM
I think about that sometimes. When i look at a wall, sometimes i think about all the little holes that a bullet could possible go through. err.... Please dont call the doctors in the White coats for me.
April 6th, 2006 11:50 AM
What I'd like to know -- has there ever been a single documented case of a modern, non-corrosive primer (or otherwise), spontaneously detonating without any external shock whatsoever -- just simply sitting there, fire notwithstanding?
April 6th, 2006 12:02 PM
Telemark and All,
When in college I was good friends with the local gunstore owner. He managed to put a .22 bullet through his hand. While I think he shot himself accidently he insists, and keeps insisting, that the primer went off due to a large jolt of static electricity.
It's not documented and while I've never heard of such a thing, I never knew Doug to lie either.
But the basic premise is that we don't want gun pointing at anything we aren't willing to destroy. How far does that go? In my case, the back of the oak nightstand? The first wall? The second?
I'm using myself as an example; it's not situation-specific.
In other words, just about any direction you point the pistol is potentially unsafe. Should we have bullet traps to aim our pistols at when we take them off? How about when we're wearing them?
I try to bring things up nobody thinks about; it keeps us sharp I think.
April 6th, 2006 12:02 PM
While I'm not the smartest guy on the block - I'm pretty sure it's not even possible.
Originally Posted by tele_mark
April 6th, 2006 12:15 PM
Loaded handguns are dangerous. That's why even people who have been handling guns all their lives repeat the mantra of gun safety. Handle guns long enough and you *will* have an accident or near accident that makes you go "Whoa!"
I don't worry about my pistol magically discharging of its own accord. I do worry about an ND when I draw or handle it, and I am concerned about where it is pointing when I might retrieve it. Unfortunately, in an urban or suburban setting, there are opportunities for accidents in every direction, and I think the best you can do is keep it pointed in the direction it is likely to do the least damage. Generally, I do not set my loaded pistol down for any length of time out of its holster - if it is loaded, it is either in my hand or in my holster. If I do need to set it down for some length of time or leave it unattended even for a minute, I remove the magazine, lock back the slide and empty the chamber. If I set down a handgun, I perform a safety check every time I pick it up - loaded or unloaded, I treat it the same. If the slide is not locked back, I assume it is loaded, and check it. If the slide is locked back, I still check it.
To be honest, though, I don't worry about it spontaneously firing. Once I have verified it is empty, as long as I haven't set it down, I don't worry about it magically loading itself and I don't worry about where it is pointed while the slide is locked back, the chamber is empty and the magazine ejected. Once I set it down, though, I make no assumptions on retrieval. That's just me.
April 6th, 2006 12:24 PM
It is important to consider rule #2 matters at all times but ultimately when it comes to carry and night time placement - we have to accept a small compromize. I like OWB because my muzzle direction is pretty much clear of my leg line, even better when sitting. At night I do give some thought to muzzle direction.
Main thing IMO is to know your gun inside out and thus be familiar with its safety aspects - and then of course your handling abilities. Properly maintained and handled guns are not going to do anything to easily cause accidents but still - I do believe that max adherence to the rules of safety is still a way to go.
Murphy lurks - machines are not infallible - neither is the human component!
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
April 6th, 2006 12:53 PM
We all must keep safety in mind; it's the first (and last) rule of owning and handling any weapon. That being said, we also have to use some common sense and not become so paranoid we can't see the forest for the trees.
If you really think about it, if you live in an apartment or carry in public, ANYWHERE you point a loaded gun has the possibility of hitting someone. The only totally safe firearm is an unloaded firearm, unless you plan to throw it or use it as a club. You can also keep it loaded but with an empty chamber, which is 99.99999% safe from accidental discharge. I'd say 100%, but someone would find an isolated, freak of nature, one-of-a-kind incident - like being struck by a meteor - to prove me wrong.
Modern firearms are about as "fool" proof as they can be. If you have a name brand gun that's in good working order and use quality ammo, an accidental discharge is almost impossible. The REAL factor you need to worry about is the human factor. Check almost any "accidental" discharge and you'll find that if the gun was in proper working order, the problem can be attributed to human error.
Know your gun and how it works, know what condition it's in and follow common sense, basic gun safety rules. If you do, your chances of an accident will be much less than being hit by a train or falling down and breaking your neck. Trust your gun and it's safety features to work the way it was designed. If you're familiar with your gun and practice with it regularly, there should be no problem. If you don't or can't trust your weapon (or yourself) to work correctly, then there is something either wrong with the gun, you aren't as familiar with it as you should be or, maybe, you shouldn't be carrying one.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
April 6th, 2006 01:07 PM
December 1972 while serving as pay officer for HHC-5-1 at Ft. Ord, CA I had a discharge that can be classified as accidental, but which I can only attribute to either faulty ammo and/or static electricity. My payroll included over $200,000 in cash, so my standard procedure was to have my 1911 in condition 1 on my desk while paying. When I went to finance to pick up the payroll I would be accompanied by an NCO with M-16 with full magazine. I carried the 1911 with full mag. When we reached the finance office we were required to eject the mag and clear the weapons, then put the muzzle in a 4" steel pipe imbedded in the ground and pull the trigger. Upon leaving the finance office we carried the weapons with the mag inserted but no round in the chamber.
I would go into my office, lock the door, and sort the money. Then at the appropriate time I would open the door and begin to pay. Before I allowed the first payee into the office I would take the 1911 out of the holster and while keeping it pointed at a cinder block wall rack the slide and engage the safety. Then I would place it on my desk to my right pointed toward the wall.
December 1972 was to be my last payroll. I was transferring to another unit on Ft. Ord and would become the property book officer of that brigade size unit. My replacement was fresh from officer basic at Ft. Benning and on his first assignment. He was signed in to the company and the company commander had instructed him to go with me to learn how to pay. We had gotten the payroll, sorted it and opened the door in preparation for paying. The first payee was ready to come into the office and get payed. I explained to the new LT that it was my habit to have the 1911 in condition 1 on the desk. He was sitting to my right and slightly behind me. I pulled the 1911 out of the holster and holding it pointed at the cinder block wall started to pull the slide to the rear. Somewhere in the fraction of a second betwee my releasing the slide and it going into battery the round when off. Talk about scared! I was scared; the new LT was scared; the payees lined up outside the office were scared; the 1SG was scared. Everybody on the first floor was scared. The projectile hit the cinder block wall and disintergrated. We never found even one small piece of it. Of course it was standard military ball ammo. It left a crater about 1.5" wide and .75" deep in the wall. We drove a masonary nail into the crater and hung an calendar there. The new LT and I both had powder stains on our faces and uniforms. The slide did not cycle. I immediately removed the mag and ejected the case. The primer show no mark from a firing pin. It was split slightly. The first real problem for us was getting our ears to stop ringing and our hearts started again.
We then paid the troops without the 1911 in condition 1 on the desk. Then we started to consider the really tough problem. My company commander was signed for 7 rounds of .45 caliber ammunition and we now had only 6. I was due to go on leave the next day and return 15 days later to my new unit. It would have been easier to fill out the paperwork explaining why I had killed someone than to fill out the paperwork explaining what had happened to that one round. We estimated that it would take at least two weeks to clear things up. The new LT was also planning to go on leave the next day so he was as interested as I was in solving the problem. We could not just put another .45 round in the company safe and act like nothing happened. The military ammo had a color code for the different lots of ammo. The new LT said that he owned a 1911 and had picked up a case of surplus ammo in LA on his way to Ft. Ord. He went and got the ammo. We both knew that there was absolutely no possibility that the ammo he bought was from the same lot as the ammo the company had, but neither of us had any other ideas. When we opened the first box and pull out the first round the color on the base looked to us to be the same as on the company's ammo. We then got one of the six remaining rounds and compared it with his. As far as we could tell they were the same. We had the 1SG and company clerk look at the two and they could not tell which was the company ammo and which was his. He took the six rounds of ammo that belonged to the company and put them in his box and put 7 of his rounds in the company safe. When he returned from leave after the first of the year he turned in the ammo in the safe and was issued new ammo.
Magically going off, I don't think so. Old ammo plus static electricty, possibly. I have never had anything like that happen since, but it reinforce for me the necessity of keeping the firearm pointed in a safe direction. If I had not been extremely careful that day the muzzle of that pistol could have moved just a small amount and been pointing at that young LT. I continue to be very cognizant of firearm safety and where mine are pointing especially when loading and unloading. When I lay one on a table I notice where it is pointing, but do not really have a fear of it going off without some external input.
Last edited by dr_cmg; April 6th, 2006 at 03:10 PM.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein
April 6th, 2006 02:10 PM
Well, on myth busters they had .22 shells go off by putting them into the circut box in a vehicle so static electricity is plausible IMHO.
I don't think that you can ensure that the firearm doesn't point at anyone at one time or the other, not even an ankle holster without being mindful 100% of the time with 100% of your brain (which would make it impossible to think of anything else).
I mistakely pointed a firearm at a person yesterday at the gun shop. I had it pointed in a safe direction when someone walked in front of it from the side. They "sneaked" into the side while I was testing the fit and finish (it was a Star Model P .45). Granted, I had double checked to ensure it wasn't loaded but then again, Treat every firearm as if it is loaded comes to mind.
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